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France builds Doomsday Machine...
In the eastern regions of France, near Lyon, flanked by virgin pine forests, streams, lakes and fir clad mountain ridges, bordering on Switzerland, lays the CERN (Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire) facility which houses over 6,300 scientists working feverishly to bring online the next generation in basic particle super-colliders. This massive Hadron collider is a magnetic ring 27 kilometers in circumference: Ultimately, it will collide beams of protons at an energy of 14 TeV. Additionally, beams of lead nuclei will be also accelerated, colliding together with an energy of 1150 TeV. The LHC will be the most powerful particle accelerator in the world.
The main purpose of this facility is to produce antimatter and black holes. A terrorist would need only half of a gram of antimatter to be equally destructive as the Hiroshima bomb. If CERN’s antimatter factory were to blow up today it would only affect the regions bordering France and Switzerland. But if CERN were to produce just one stable black hole
, it could destroy the world. Surprisingly, the United States of America, through the National Science Foundation and the Department of Energy, will be funding over $1 Billion Dollars towards this French experiment into creating potentially devastating black holes.
These black holes, the densest matter in the universe, will plummet to the very core of the earth, then, slowly at first, growing one particle, one quark at a time, but at an ever accelerating rate. Scientists have estimated that a stable black hole at the center of the earth could consume not only France but the whole planet in the very short time span of between 4 minutes and 30 seconds and 7 minutes.
That age-old question: Will our planet disappear in the twinkling of an eye? - Now becomes a probability if and when the CERN facility is allowed to go on-line in 2008.
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IMPORTANT NOTE: On Tuesday, March 27, 2007, there was a devastating explosion deep in the tunnel at the CERN particle accelerator complex that actually blew a 20 ton magnet right off its mountings. The explosion filled the tunnel with helium and forced a mass evacuation of the facility.
While the facility was supposed to go online during the summer of 2007, the new startup is tentatively summer of 2008 after 17 miles of magnets have been repaired or replaced. This explosion, to those of us who count ourselves among the worried masses, appears to be an ominous foreshadowing of what could eventually become the Second-Coming of the Big Bang...
Even Dr. Lyn Evans, who heads the accelerator project at CERN, said the explosion had been potentially very dangerous. "There was a hell of a bang, the tunnel housing the machine filled with helium and dust and we had to call in the fire brigade to evacuate the place," he said. "The people working on the test were frightened to death but they were all in a safe place so no-one was hurt."
An investigation by the researchers found that basic math flaws had caused the explosion -- which gives one pause in contemplating how much faith can bestowed upon 6,000 scientists who can overlook basic math mistakes. Not only was this mistake made in the original design phase, but it was also missed on four engineering reviews carried out over a period of four years. The director of Fermilab, Pier Oddone, blithely wrote about the disaster stating that they had caused "a pratfall on the world stage". A pratfall ? Should these Keystone-scientists be entrusted with the fate of the world in their hands?
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CERN scientists obviously talk of the scientific wonders and benefits these experiments will bring. Aurélien Barrau and Julien Grain speaking on behalf of CERN say that these "tiny black holes could offer a richer view of physics than their better known, more massive relations … It should be stated … that these black holes are not dangerous and do not threaten to swallow up our already much-abused planet." When it was finally disclosed that this facility would actually be producing, during normal high-impact collider experiments, one black hole each and every second, numerous scientists cautioned that a public risk-assessment by non-affiliated scientists must be conducted for the CERN facility but not by the CERN scientists or the French government. To this very day the French have refused to make such an assessment of the potential dangers that lay ahead for all of humanity once the switch is finally pulled.
In 2008, when they fire up the Large Hadron Collider, Global Warming and Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network will suddenly become the least of our earthly worries.
The French defend their playing at God and this potential black hole
catastrophe by saying:
1. Black holes have been
created by cosmic rays without incident; therefore black holes are not a danger
to the planet earth.
Response A. No instrumentation or
observations have ever detected the formation of black holes in the atmosphere;
It is a completely unsubstantiated theory that was fabricated solely to defend
the building of CERN. 1,600 hot-tub-size cosmic-ray detectors positioned over a
vast area of nearly twelve hundred square miles (the ground array system for the
Pierre Auger Cosmic Ray Observatory) were installed in the Pampa Amarilla in
Argentina, located at the edge of the town of Malargue, in an effort to detect
particle showers from disintegrations of microscopic black holes in the
atmosphere. To-date this experiment has detected numerous cosmic-ray air showers, (the observatory is presently measuring more than 500 air showers each
and every day) but has failed to detect any black holes spawned by cosmic rays.
Since this controversial theory is the backbone to the supposed safety of the
CERN black hole factory, startup should not be allowed to occur under any
circumstances until the Auger Observatory can prove that harmless atmospheric
black holes actually exist.
Response B. Even if a black hole could be
formed by cosmic rays striking atmospheric particles, it would be a glancing
blow at near the speed of light, causing the resultant mass to careen off into
space at a velocity much greater than the escape velocity of the earth (11.2
km/s).
While, in contrast, the CERN particles would be striking each other as in a
head-on collision, causing the resultant black holes to lose their momentum;
making them unable to reach escape velocity; causing them to immediately
free-fall, undetected, to the center of the earth.
2. The black holes CERN
creates will not be stable. “Black hole production does not
present a conceivable risk at the LHC due to the rapid decay of the black hole
through thermal process”. They will be unstable and will evaporate in a
flash as predicted by Stephen Hawking in 1975. The CERN facility was built under
the assumption that Hawking radiation was a fact and that the black holes they
would automatically create would be unstable and therefore not be a threat to
the human race and the planet upon which we reside.
Response A. No instrumentation or
observations have ever detected the Hawking radiation being emitted from any
black hole. Kip S. Thorne, a professor of theoretical physics
at Caltech, who has been working on evaporation with Hawking, says: “It’s
possible, we understand quantum fields far less that what we believe and it’s a
mistake when we think black holes evaporate. It is however true that we should
feel more in ease if astronomers could effectively observe clues of black holes
evaporation”.
Response B. Black holes by their very
definition are stable: Nothing escapes their gravitational pull. And that
includes radiation.
Response C. In Dublin Ireland on July 21
2004, Stephen Hawking, at the age of 62, retracted his original 1975 concept
whereby matter disappearing into black holes traveled through the black hole to
a new parallel universe – just like on Star Trek! After 30 years of thinking
about the paradox he created, that violated the 1st Law of
Thermodynamics, Stephen Hawking now admits that he was wrong about the dynamics
of black holes. Stephen Hawking went on to say; “I’m sorry to disappoint science
fiction fans, but if information is preserved, there is no possibility of using
black holes to travel to other universes.” Hawking’s original theory was more
of a personal view, a hunch, which was not necessarily shared by the scientific
community or even demonstrated by any cosmic observations. But CERN still looks
upon it as the Holy Grail to this very day, even after Hawking admitted that his
theory was wrong. Hawking radiation has always been a purely theoretical
manifestation. There are many published papers by prominent scientists who have
always asserted that such radiation does not exist. CERN, by doggedly relying on
false science, could easily end up being the mega-industrial accident that wipes
out the entire world.
How can such cosmic arrogance be stopped? Obviously reasoning will never
work.
Where Stephen Hawking went so
terribly wrong…
Hawking, at the age of 33, published his most famous scientific paper in 1975
– that all black holes were unstable and would emit radiation. In effect, the
black hole's energy was slowly radiated away until after a certain amount of
time, depending on its mass, it ceases to exist – the black hole ‘evaporates’.
He based his theory on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics – that entropy affected all
matter in the universe while at the same time it violated the 1st Law of
Thermodynamics. The paradox lie in his argument that objects really
“disappeared” inside a black hole and left no trace, while the 1st Law of
Thermodynamics says matter can be transformed but never fully destroyed.
Hawking argued by inference that the 1st Law was wrong while the 2nd law was
correct – an obvious untenable paradox.
A colleague of Stephen Hawking at Cambridge University, Gary Gibbons, stated that "His style of doing science is quite dramatic. Hawking will propose a thesis and defend it to the last, until it is overthrown by better reasoning." For thirty years Hawking defended a poorly reasoned idea.
Stephen Hawking thought that since the 2nd Law proved that entropy existed in all previously observed matter/energy exchanges then black holes also must follow the 2nd Law. What he did not consider was that black holes are the singular exception that proves the rule. Black holes are natures only Perpetual Motion Machines. They chew up matter and energy transforming them into nature’s most fundamental particles swirling about in a quark-gluon plasma. They absorb energy/matter but never release energy/matter. When they have absorbed everything within their gravitational reach, they quietly wait in their black shroud of invisibility for the next passing star. And when there are no more stars they still just wait patiently as the eons pass.
i think we should all just go out and have lots of random sex before the bloody French do us all in.
Posted By dr. r sole, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/12/08 7:21 AM
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"But Dr. Rossler has a potential solution. He proposes to rebuild the LHC on the moon. Prof. Otto E. Rossler says he has calculated the cost for running the LHC on the moon and they are only 2-3 times higher than here on Earth. Proving his great humor, Prof. Otto E. Rossler continued to say that then we could watch the moon getting eaten up by the black hole - like in Disneyland. The CERN has not reacted to Prof. Otto E. Rossler's thesis and his suggestions, but has also not refuted his thesis."
Hmm...I'm not an expert in the field, unlike the good professor, but I was question his cost predictions for running the LHC on the moon...
First of all, we would have to build a new particle collider when we've just build one. Remember, the LHC is only the latest incarnation of CERN. I believe it is basically a refit of the LEP. To build on the moon would require building it from scratch.
Shipping materials into space is EXTREMELY expensive. A space shuttle launch costs $110,000,000 and each shuttle can carry just under 30 tonnes. You've then got to account for living accomodation for the physicists, their transport etc. Not to mention the research costs of actually developing the technology to feasibly live on the moon. Etc etc etc.
As I said, I'm no expert but I'd suggest that anyone who calculated the running costs of a large facility on earth to be 2-3 times less than the costs of creating and running that same facility on the moon isn't particularly credible.
Also, creating a black hole on the moon would still have dire, if not fatal affects on the Earth..
Posted By Kiran, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/11/08 9:54 AM
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BLACK HOLE EATING EARTH? PROF. ROSSLER SUGGESTS MOON LHC. ROBERT AYMAR, DIRECTOR CERN, IS NOT INTERESTED.
At the CERN a machine is built, with which for the first time in the history of mankind black holes could be produced on Earth. The amazing is, nobody believes that that is dangerous.'
Quote from an interview with Professor Dr. Otto E. Rossler
After 15 years of building, the CERN LHC, the largest and most expensive machine ever build by mankind, will soon go into production mode. Over the last weeks, public and media interest on the CERN LHC in Meyrin, Geneva, Switzerland and its presumed risks has grown.
A very prominent scientist that has found substantial risks involved by activating the CERN LHC - which should happen in exactly 10 days - is Prof. Otto E. Rossler from the University of Tübingen in Germany, a chaos scientist.
Prof. Otto E. Rossler is an established scientist who has written 10 books, published over 500 papers and won several prestigious prices.
Based on his thesis papers (available at http://www.wissensnavigator.com - German) currently released for peer review Prof. Otto E. Rossler says that there is a 50% chance that a real black hole gets created at the LHC and that then there are then only 50 months left for our planet Earth.
In an interview with golem.de, Dr. Rossler says that: 'At the CERN a machine is built, with which for the first time in the history of mankind black holes could be produced on Earth.' and that 'there is no remedy. The thing is hopeless, after 50 months the earth would have shrunk to a centimeter. There would be nothing more there, not only no more life, but also the earth would be gone, only their weight would remain - as a small black hole.'
But Dr. Rossler has a potential solution. He proposes to rebuild the LHC on the moon. Prof. Otto E. Rossler says he has calculated the cost for running the LHC on the moon and they are only 2-3 times higher than here on Earth. Proving his great humor, Prof. Otto E. Rossler continued to say that then we could watch the moon getting eaten up by the black hole - like in Disneyland. The CERN has not reacted to Prof. Otto E. Rossler's thesis and his suggestions, but has also not refuted his thesis.
But with the Lawsuit placed in Hawaii a few weeks ago by Walter Wagner and Luis Sancho, as reported in the New York Times (see http://www.notepad.ch/blogs/index.php/2008/04/14/asking-a-judge-to-save-the-world-and-may), more and more people talking about the LHC risks on blogs and forums globally and more and more articles in the media, the CERN is getting further pressure to change its communication policy. The CERN has already had to make one concession to public pressure by reopening its blog. Although the CERN as an international organisation and its baby the LHC financed by 33 countries are not known to be easily intimidated. Too much money and politicians pride is involved in this project, that definitely has a place in the Guiness Book of records.
Prof. Otto E. Rossler thesis should be taken seriously by CERN responsibles for if he is right, the survival of our planet earth depends on it. And the survival of this whole Universe.
Michelangelo Luigi Mangano, a leading scientist in the LHC project, replied to Prof. Otto E. Rossler to his question 'Why do you think that it is not dangerous to create black holes?':'We are conscious us of the concerns, which circulate in the public. The CERN will publish a brochure in approximately one month to the topic. We have here all family, friends, children and and we would never expose them to danger.. We concerned ourselves here very intensively with these questions. I, and 99.99 per cent of my colleagues believe that the black holes will dematerialize.' Except Prof. Otto E. Rossler.
A safety report which the CERN promised will address all the open issues concerning the security of the CERN LHC and was due on the 19th April - but has been further delayed. But this has not made the CERN to delay the go live date of the LHC, which is rumored to be the 21. May. As the CERN releases no detailed schedule, it remains unknown which dates an increased danger of producing a black hole, if one gives credibility to Prof. Otto E. Rossler thesis, will be present.
Because of public pressure, CERN had recently to open their blogs to the public. One can only hope that public and media pressure will further increase. This leaves room for hope that the long awaited safety report will be made public before the LHC goes live.
The CERN Press Office can be reached by phone at +41 2 76 721 41. CERN Director Robert Aymar can be reached via email at aymar@cern.ch
About Prof. Dr. Otto E. Rossler:
Prof. Dr. Otto E. Rossler currently works at the University of Tuebingen in Germany He specializes on theoretical biology, theoretical physics, mathematic, philosophy and nature sciences.Throughout his career Dr. Rossler has authored around 500 scientific papers in fields as wide-ranging as Biogenesis, deductive biology, origin of language, differentiable automata, bacterial brain, brain equations, chaotic attractors, dripping faucet, heart chaos (with Reimara Rossler), hyperchaos, nowhere-differentiable attractors (with Jack Hudson and Ichiro Tsuda), flare attractors, endophysics, micro relativity, Platonic computers, micro constructivism, recursive evolution, limitology, interface theory, artificial universes, the hypertext encyclopedia, Lampsacus hometown of all persons, blind-sight experiments in physics, world-change technology. He wrote four books: Encounter with Chaos (1992), Endophysics: The world As an Interface (1992), Jonas World - The Thinking of Child (1994, in German), and The Flaming Sword (1996 in German), as well as the CD Descartes' Traum (in German). He can be contacted at the University of Tübingen, Phone: +49 (0) 7071-29-72477, Fax: +49 (0) 7071-29 5490.
Armin Albarracin, Senior Investigative Journalist
Member of Deutscher Verband der Pressejournalisten e.V. (Reg ID: BD-0742 1055-017)
If you would like more information about this topic or schedule an interview with Armin Albarracin, senior investigative journalist at notepad publishing please use the following contact information:
Mail: armin.albarracin@notepad.ch
Phone: 0 800 561 431
Fax: 0 800 561 432
Contact Information:
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1200 geneva
switzerland
Contact Person:
Armin Albarracin
Journalist
email: armin.albarracin@notepad.ch
Phone: 0 800 561 431
Fax: 0 800 561 432
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Posted By admin, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/11/08 9:00 AM
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I am unsure why you are drawing attention to the explosion in Cern as support to your fears over the doomsday senario. The facility will have been built and designed by engineers under the specifications of physicists. The fact that the engineering was flawed is not really a reflection of poor physicists. That's like saying that a bank manager isn't fit to advise on a loan because the plumbers bodged the toilets up in his branch.
As to the questions of "why make cern in the first place"...calling it scientific arrogance etc is rather unfair. The LHC will certainly cause huge advances in partical physics. One of the biggies is that it will either discover the Higgs boson or prove that it doesn't exist...that's quite a big deal and it isn't a purely intellectual one either. Partical physics has many and varied applications in every day technology.
We cannot halt the human race's technological advancement every time someone comes up with a potential doomsday senario.
It is worth noting that, in science, it is never possible to be 100% sure of anything. *Nothing* can be 100% disproved. It is all based on probabilities. That is why there is a probability of LHC destroying the world. All we can do is put probability guides on everything. For example, there is nothing physically stopping you from flying into the air as you read this. It is entirely possible for all the atoms in your body to start moving in the same direction and cause this effect, it is just extremely unlikely. Much like LHC destroying the world.
Ok, the chances of the LHC destroying the world are a bit higher...we're pretty sure the strangelet theory is rubbish, that the black holes will evaporate almost instantly etc. but, as with everything, we arn't certain.
So, it is a small risk with the certainty of huge rewards if it doesn't kill us all. Its like crossing the road to go to a shop. Ok, you might die, but its unlikely and if you don't you'll get to eat Frosties in the morning.
Besides, if it does go tits up, we won't have much time for regrets as each doomsday senario seems to be pretty swift in its effect. So whats the problem? And lets face it...destroying the world by turning it into strange matter would be quite an impressive achievement.
Posted By Kiran, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/11/08 5:01 AM
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Something about this really smells rotton.
Am I really supposed to believe that the nations of the earth are spending trillions of dollars to place over thirty 20 ton electromagnets and employ 1/3 of the worlds physicists (6300) in order to go on a Higgs Boson Hunt?
If this were antiquity, they would be building the tower of babal.
The question is: What is it really?
Kristina
Posted By Kristina, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/9/08 10:56 AM
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I disagree with the experiment not only because of the probability of disastrous results but also for the immoral and unethical uses the research will be used for IF they are successful.
Do you think we are spiritually evolved enough for this technology and knowledge when the world is controlled by megalomaniac warlords to put this to good use for all humanity? Or do you think it will be used for world domination and control? What would Hitler have done if he had a time machine or could control the energy of black holes and/or stranglets?
No matter how much we try we will not be able to stop this. We will only be able to postpone the time till they push the button.
People are being killed, starving and living under impossible conditions and all mankind can do is think of new and better ways to destroy each other or possibly the universe.
Perhaps the earth and the universe would be better off if the parasitic infection called mankind would cease to exist.
Posted By M. Goodfield, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/9/08 7:46 AM
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Having read the article and also many of the comments I am still left with one question.
Why is there a need to do this?
Posted By Martin LeMoine, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/9/08 5:53 AM
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On the grand scale of the universe, these scientists are a bunch of retards with egos as big as space and time itself.
Posted By pepe, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/8/08 9:54 PM
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Quote from:
http://www.notepad.ch
Strangelet, black hole or wormhole?
Somebody which I meet at a park here in Geneva, Switzerland where our 2 labradors love to play together, told me today that it looks like during the experiement the CERN is starting this autumn 3 things could happen:
1. If all the calculations where right (and it's the first time we try this) it should give the world a BIG BANG
2. If somethings goes wrong only one of these things (and not both together) could happen:
A black hole
Just, depending on its size, sucks us slowly or faster in and could make us changing time zone in a funny way. But finally all this universe would get sucked in.
A wormhole
This means that an unique potential time travel awaiting (please fasten your seatbelt ;-). That actually has a good chance that we will time travel instantly, peacefully and in first class.
Well, OF COURSE I did not believe this person. But I was intrigued. This web site is just to diplay the views and opinions on this issue.
I think he has part of this information from the movie 'The Black Hole' ;-)
Now I understand it's (possibly incomplete list) about a collapse, a wormhole, a strangelet or a black hole
This blog has been completed in 24 hours. Why? Because only a few days are left until the warming up systems status is implemented at the LHT. A few days that may be the last we have.
As I live in Geneva, I would much care if a black hole sucked me in or if I would be on timetravel through the universes if the wormhole comes.
WE MUST DEMAND
A IMMEDIATE HALT TO FURTHER WORK ON THIS PROJECT
A SECURITY ANALYSIS BY AN INDEPENDANT TEAM OF TOP SCIENTISTS DURING AT LEAST 1 YEAR
OPEN AND COMPLETE INFORMATION THROUGH THE MASS MEDIA AND SPECIALLY FROM THE CERN
SUFFICIENT DISCUSSIONS, TALK SHOWS TO LET THE PUBLIC THINK AND EXPRESS ITSELF CONCERNING THE LHC
To give background about this immense project in the outskirts of the City of Geneva, which is rich in opinion and enough technical info to get the picture, the main content of this forum are quotes from News about the Geneva LHC, where important data is shown in bold.
admin
Quote from:
http://www.notepad.ch
Posted By notepad, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/29/08 1:36 AM
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The best part is, I am far enough away in 'Middle Earth' to get a few more minutes to live IF it goes bad. LOL
Posted By Warren East, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/21/08 4:19 AM
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Thank you very much for this website and particularly for this "doomsday machine" page. It is now quite popular among the physicists who are working for the LHC all over the world... Say goodbye to your relatives and friends, sell all your stocks and valuables, go and enjoy your last few months on this petty planet.
Posted By A. Demir, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/20/08 10:00 AM
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The money should be used for so many worthwhile things, like saving mankind for one.
Posted By Liz, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/15/08 1:33 PM
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There is no such thing as a black hole - it is merely a mathmatical construct to fix the fact that when we examine the observable universe it does not fit our scientific models. Our theories of gravity and angular momentum where created hundreds of years ago through scientists studying our solar system, when we apply these theories to the universe (which consists of 99% ionised gas-plasma) these theories are so far out that modern science considers 97% of the known universe to consist of dark matter and energy. Our sun (like all stars) is a giant particle accelerator, the "solar wind" is simply a stream of particles accelerated by our sun. These particles are smashing into our atmosphere, planet and ourselves all the time. The real danger from the LHC (and I'm not convinced it's a very great one) is the huge magnetic fields created by the accelerator itself. Not enough research has been done on the consequences of these fields. If you consider the dangers that have been associated with charged particles form electricity pylons it is odd that there has not been more emphasis on this.
Posted By Damian Scott, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/15/08 8:00 AM
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NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT NEXT YEARS BILLS OR LONG TERM INSURANCE OR THE NATIONAL DEBT,OR OTHER SUCH TRIVIAL PROBLEMS.
A GROUP OF FRENCH LOONIES, DISGUISED AS SCIENTISTS, HAVE FOUND A WAY TO END IT ALL, USING THE LARGEST PARTICLE COLLIDER EVER DREAMED OF OR BUILT. THE LARGE HADRON COLLIDER (LHC) MAY TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING WITH ONE GIANT BANG.
WHAT A WAY TO GO!!
Posted By JOHN JAY, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/12/08 4:01 PM
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There is a significantly higher risk of Earth being destroyed through naturally produced black holes than by the LHC.
(MODERATOR: If there is just a slight risk of the total annihilation of the only known habitat of life in the universe, obviously there is nothing to worry about... right?)
Posted By Adam Morris, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/12/08 10:32 AM
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Just read the official CERN site about LHC "safety"... Frightening, the physics-babble you can find there - ludicrous analogies to the TGV and mosquitos. Do they believe that themselves? And the most frightening bit is that about Hawkings "discovery" - no, he didn't discover anything; he's just another clueless nerd whose hypotheses for some irrational reason are taken very seriously.
Anyway, we DO have to do something, and we CAN DO something. Act now! Write to the president of your country, the minister of science, ... state your arguments in a clear way but express the urgency.
I know enough about physics, and THAT'S what makes me scared.
I hope enough scientists at CERN become doubtful at the last minute and go on strike or ... or ...
Posted By brickinthewall, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/10/08 3:24 PM
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Okay, let's step back and think about this for a moment. Let's put aside all questions of whether the risk outweighs the benefit, whether these scientists are behaving morally, etc.
Instead, let's look at the raw concept of a "doomsday experiment", the notion that a particle accelerator like the LHC could (say) destroy our entire planet.
Think back to the end of World War 2, when we first developed and tested the atomic bomb. Imagine a scenario where dropping a nuke would destroy the entire planet due to a hypothetical chain reaction. Imagine that we realised this in time to stop making nuclear weapons, and imposed a worldwide ban on their development and use. We're safe right?
Well, no. Someday, somewhere, a little petty nation is going to realise that it can develop these weapons, in secret, and hold the entire world for ransom. Maybe they destroy us due to a lab accident, maybe they make good on their threat . . . or maybe an even smaller crackpot terrorist group gets ahold of the technology and detonates it in a holy war to get to their religion heaven and get their forty virgins or whatnot.
If a doomsday weapon exists, you can't control it, period. The mere existence of such a weapon has still doomed us all, and avoiding it now just means we live in fear of the day when it's unleashed anyway.
The idea of a terrorist group building their own LHC is absurd today, of course, but the idea of them making their own nuclear bomb was pretty unlikely fifty years ago. With technology getting exponentially better and smaller, it gets easier and easier to make these machines, and it only takes a single one to destroy us all.
That is, *if* it's possible for a particle accelerator to destroy us all in the first place. And that's why you'd better hope it's not. Because if it is, then even if you manage to stop the LHC outright, you still only delay the inevitable.
When the LHC comes online, we'll either discover a lot of new and exciting stuff about the world around us, or we'll discover that we were all doomed. So what's the big deal?
Posted By Wisq, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/10/08 3:23 PM
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Keep it up!!! Thank you for making my LHC-working day worthwhile.
(MODERATOR: Instead of spending their work-days blithly cruising the Internet, these LHC employees should be watching their guages in an effort to curtail any further disasterious explosions like their recent "incident". There is an obvious lack of safety supervision at this critical facility.)
Posted By one, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/10/08 9:56 AM
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The main purpose of the LHC is not "to produce antimatter or black holes". Its purpose is to detect elementary particles like the Higgs Boson in order to verify the standard model of physics and to clarify the phenomenon of mass.
Alex/Germany
(MODERATOR: Therefore the antimater and black holes are just inconvenient byproducts?)
Posted By Alex, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/9/08 10:33 AM
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If there is even the slightest possibility of a risk of whatever kind, even if it is an 0.0000000001 per cent risk, there can be only one answer to the question, whether or not this risk should be taken: NO WAY!
A handful of scientists who have a stubborn trust in what they believe to know may want to take that risk still; however, 99.9999999999 per cent of the world population don’t.
STOP LHC NOW! AT ANY COST! BY ANY MEANS! ANY!!!
Posted By brickinthewall, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/8/08 3:59 PM
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As for comment 32 posted by Clemmens:
Man can not fly, airplanes and helicopters do.
Train accidents kill people all the time.
A nuclear explosion does incinerate the atmosphere, try standing next to one when it goes off.
It's not the coming down from the trees, it's how we come down from trees that matters.
Posted By William, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/8/08 12:31 AM
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CERNs web site states that we have not been destroyed by effects of cosmic rays and micro black holes will evaporate.
However, cosmic rays travel too fast to be captured by Earths gravity, and Hawking Radiation is disputed and contradicts Einsteins highly successful relativity theory. Collider particles smash head on like a car collision and can be captured by Earths gravity, and relativity predicts micro black holes will not decay (Hawking called Einstein doubly wrong, yet it is Einstein who is repeatedly found to have been correct in his theories). There is currently no reasonable proof of LHC safety, LSAG (LHC Safety Assessment Group) has been trying for months to prove safety without success. I hold the minority opinion that it may not be possible because it may in fact not be safe.
Cosmic Rays from the legal complaint.
any such novel particle created in nature by cosmic ray impacts would be left with a velocity at nearly the speed of light, relative to earth. At such speeds, . . . , is believed by most theorists to simply pass harmlessly through our planet with nary an impact, safely exiting on the other side. . . . Conversely, any such novel particle that might be created at the LHC would be at slow speed relative to earth, a goodly percentage would then be captured by earths gravity, and could possibly grow larger [accrete matter] with disastrous consequences of the earth turning into a large black hole.
If this thing is so safe, why arent CERN scientists allowed to express any personal fears they might have about this Collider?
Alleged in the legal action: Chief Scientific Officer, Mr. Engelen passed an internal memorandum to workers at CERN, asking them, regardless of personal opinion, to affirm in all interviews that there were no risks involved in the experiments, changing the previous assertion of minimal risk.
(Statisticians generally consider minimal risk as 1-10%).
What do you think about what Professor Dr. Otto E. Roessler says about possible danger from the Large Hadron Collider at (translation from German at www.lhcconcerns.com/LHCConcerns/Forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52)
JTankers
LHCConcerns.com
Posted By JTankers, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/6/08 8:37 AM
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Some of the comments forget that it is not just a French project! There are involved scientists from many countries including the UK. Well, I live 5 km from the collider, and I'll prepare some bottle of good French wine to take with me into the black hole!
Posted By Eugène, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/5/08 11:42 PM
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This is madness! But I fear because so much money has been spent on it nothing and no one can stop them.
Posted By ian, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/3/08 6:08 PM
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Wenn ich die Menschen höre, welche hier über die Bedenklichkeit von LHC fabulieren und mir dann überlege, dass diese Menschen als Wissenschaftler so ziemlich das Weitestentwickelste ist, was die Menschheit hervor gebracht hat, dann muss ich sagen, dass es mich um diese explizite Erde nicht wahnsinnig reut ! Lasst uns die Kanone hochfahren und dann zielen wir auf die Seppen in London!
el Taffereu (Zürich, Schweiz)
Posted By Taffareu, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/31/08 4:45 PM
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Bah, I call 'Humbug' on that!
500 years ago, we thought that man cannot fly.
180 years ago, we thought that a trainride would be deadly.
60 years ago, we thought that a nuclear explosion would incinerate the athmosphere.
Probably some of you guys already argued against coming down from the trees...
Posted By Clemens, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/31/08 9:14 AM
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[quote by Stephen] "My hope is that the facility blows up and takes a good chunk of France with it, 6k retarded scientist and a country full of arrogant bastards. Let the RAF take to the skies and bomb the whole thing before it's too late." [end quote]
These arrogant bastards, as you call them, don't claim to be the "world police".
Stick your RAF wherever you want and let scientists do what scientists have to do. You can do politics in your own country but not in France!
Schorsch/Germany
Posted By Hackl Schorsch, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/31/08 7:15 AM
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Ahh... the peaceful use of scientific research! How the gods will laugh if this world is destroyed, not by weapons made by evil scientists, but the simple-minded search for the secrets of creation.
Posted By Skull, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/30/08 10:13 AM
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Throw the switch, mad scientists! Matter and energy be damned, we have a Universe to conquer!
Posted By Brother B, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 10:46 PM
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Damn this shit makes me RAAAAGGGEE!!!
My hope is that the facility blows up and takes a good chunk of France with it, 6k retarded scientist and a country full of arrogant bastards (WE NO NEED ENGLISH!) lost would make the world a better place.
Those exactly were my thoughts. Let the RAF take to the skies and bomb the whole thing before it's too late.
Why would we allow a couple of scientists on an ego trip to play Russian Roulette with the only place to live on that we have got? Somebody please tell me. What's the scientific gain of this "little" experiment? Those cowboy scientists know only too well that they can't be held accountable if it goes wrong.
Posted By Stephen, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 6:21 PM
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Perhaps the observed black holes in our universe have not ever been created "naturally". The first one may have come about accidentally as an intelligent civilization was experimenting in regards to another unrelated area of physics. Subsequent ones could have originated the same way, or by trying to duplicate in miniature the now observed phenomena.
Maybe Planet Earth is the next-in-line "intelligent" species that brought about its doom because of curiosity. And we all know what that did for the cat.
Posted By rem, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 10:09 AM
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It will never work, you can not crash theoretical particles in a variating low magnetic field and obtain a mini black hole nor fission. That is the equivalent of shooting a grain of sand around the earth and striking another designated specific granular near the speed of light. Somebody is skimming money of the top and getting rich on this boon doggle.
Posted By Jim Ethridge, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 6:51 AM
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Perhaps the big bang theory will be self-fulfilling. Man is always looking for new ways of destruction. CERN may define our curious fatal flaw.
Posted By F. Meglin, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 11:18 PM
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This is scientific mombo jumbo. Whether those in favor or against it are correct, won't matter.
The damn machine is never going to work, if there was any chance the thing might fire-up correctly the French would be full scale retreat. Half of them would be begging the US to help them and the other half would be hiding because they can't surrender to anyone.
Step-up people. If god wants Earth to be consummed into a black hole it will happen, if she doesn't it won't. If you don't believe in God, then no one is going to save us anyhow and its inevitable that we will wipe ourselves out one way or another. I say everyone takes a few days off before the big day and party like rock stars. Then hit the switch, we will all either have dreadful hangovers the next day or we'll be turned into a cosmic hockey puck.
Spending eternity as a black whole beats the hell out of trying to push a stone to the top of the hill without success forever.
Posted By Rubin Kincaid, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 4:08 PM
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Ok I am not up to all the scientific terms nor knowledge but didn't we think the same thing when we were creating the atom bomb? That this would consume the world. Heck I live in the US and I am spooked about something in france goes haywire and if not 6 billion people and the planet are consumed it would be frightful to know such a creation could do this. I personally will be counting my blessings that they all got it right and there is some sort of safety in place if something goes wrong. I will never know why we create more ways to destroy life than save it.
Dan
Posted By Dan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 1:28 PM
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Here at CERN you guys come up in lunch time chit chat. You have more entertainment value than I think you realize. You're video of earth collapsing into a black hole is a hoot.
Keep up the good work!
Posted By A Scientist. Well, Someday, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 9:26 AM
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Is there a possibility that LHC can create black-hole material? The answer is definitely yes. There are a number of papers that have printed on this subject. The first papers came out about ten years ago. There are even preexisting organizations fighting for a postponement of this project so that new concerns can be addressed, as well as the ones that have already defined, can be addressed: risk-evaluation-forum.org, LHCdefence.org, and LifeBoat. Papers that support this conclusion are listed on the first two sites…and there was also an article written in Nature, CERN to spew black holes, October 2, 2001.
If LHC is “successful” in generating man’s first synthetic black-hole material, is there a plan to reverse any black-hole material formed? No. The current hope by proponents of LHC is that nothing will happen that is dangerous. Is this caviler wishful thinking or equation-based prudence? Depends on who you ask—do CERN scientists have a vested interest in having the public lulled into a false sense of safety what hidden agendas to the persons asking important safety concerns have? CERN wishes to protect its $6,800,000,000 European tax-dollar investment, those asking the questions only wish to protect their families, friends, and environment.
Is there a model that suggests that LHC black-hole creations will not safely disappear? Yes, there is a new model that is being advanced that suggests that the basis of the safety assurance arguments is flawed. Debate is fierce of the Scientific American blog being used to advance discussion: http://science-community.sciam.com/blog/Hasanuddins-Blog/300005039 All are welcome, though it is advised to read the model before entering in discussion.
LHC is slated to start up this May. That is only a few more days to take action…assuming they are successful on their first try. Chances are they will not be “successful” on the first try. But as they perfect their machine’s calibrations and increase the injection of bundle size, chances increase. There is still hope that public concern could derail the project and allow for all possible safety risks fully explored.
Posted By Hasanuddin, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/26/08 6:46 AM
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I wonder...why nothing at all in the news over the last months about this experiment? ....all is well, continue shopping...all is well...
[Moderartor: The French were set back a year or so by the explosion that tore apart an acclerator... So the world is safe for the time being...]
Posted By RWhyte, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/14/08 4:27 PM
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Damn this shit makes me RAAAAGGGEE!!!
My hope is that the facility blows up and takes a good chunk of France with it, 6k retarded scientist and a country full of arrogant bastards(WE NO NEED ENGLISH!) lost would make the world a better place
Posted By KantarellANON, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/9/08 6:26 PM
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What benefit's can be brought by creating blackholes on earth, I'm sure you could generate a black hole but how do you control it? You can't play God, and i believe this is scientists trying to see if god truly exists... i hope he does cause if this blows up we are all goners, the human race should have a say not just some scientists who say "yes and we'll understand how physics works properly" well if you don't know what your doing...don't fool around with something so dangerous!
Posted By Matthew Mace, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/7/08 3:07 PM
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On my web site Revelation13.net I mention that Nostradamus the French prophet 500 years ago predicted that a particle accelerator would be built near Geneva and seems to predict disaster could result from it.
Nostradamus 9-44:
"All should leave Geneva,
Saturn turns from gold to iron,
The contrary positive ray (RAYPOZ) will exterminate everything,
there will be signs in the sky before this."
I am saying that his anagram RAYPOZ means positive ray, or proton beam. Nostradamus frequently used anagrams.
Perhaps a black hole will be captured by Saturn and eat Saturn?
Posted By T Chase Revelation13.net, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/3/08 6:07 AM
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The cosmic ray model is not valid for the LHC. It has been said that cosmic rays, which have more energy than the LHC, show that there is no danger. This may be true for accelerators that shoot high energy particles at a zero speed target. This is similar to cosmic ray shock on the moon's surface. In these cases the center of mass of interaction retains a high speed. This is different from the situation at the LHC, where particles with opposing speeds collide. With cosmic rays (mainly protons in cosmic rays) we need a speed of 0.9999995 c to create a micro black hole of 1 TeV and after the interaction the micro black hole center of mass will have a speed of 0.999 c. As MBHs are not very reactive with matter, calculations indicate that this is more than enough velocity to cross planets or stars without being caught and to escape into space.
Lower speed MBHs created in colliders could be captured by earth. Using Greg Landsberg's calculation [Ref. 3] of one black hole with velocity less than escape velocity from earth produced every 10^5 seconds at the LHC, we have 3.160 (US notation 3,160) MBHs captured by earth in ten years. More precise calculations show that we could have a distribution of MBHs at every range of speed from 0 m/sec to 4 m/sec. The probability of very low speed MBHs is not zero. We need to evaluate if low speed MBHs present more risks.
-http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
Posted By AnduinX, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 11/22/07 1:59 PM
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I am currently researching for a documentary on the LHC and am looking for subjects to interview on this matter. I would in particular be interested in passionate followers based in the UK and scientists/enthusiasts raising concerns over the security issues at CERN. Please contact me on kseidelin@hotmail.com if you have something to say on this matter.
Best Katrine
Posted By Katrine, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 11/7/07 10:16 AM
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The Large Hadron Collider [LHC] at CERN might create numerous different particles that heretofore have only been theorized. Numerous peer-reviewed science articles have been published on each of these, and if you google on the term "LHC" and then the particular particle, you will find hundreds of such articles, including:
1) Higgs boson
2) Magnetic Monopole
3) Strangelet
4) Miniature Black Hole [aka nano black hole]
In 1987 I first theorized that colliders might create miniature black holes, and expressed those concerns to a few individuals. However, Hawking's formula showed that such a miniature black hole, with a mass of under 10,000,000 a.m.u., would "evaporate" in about 1 E-23 seconds, and thus would not move from its point of creation to the walls of the vacuum chamber [taking about 1 E-11 seconds travelling at 0.9999c] in time to cannibalize matter and grow larger.
In 1999, I was uncertain whether Hawking radiation would work as he proposed. If not, and if a mini black hole were created, it could potentially be disastrous. I wrote a Letter to the Editor to Scientific American [July, 1999] about that issue, and they had Frank Wilczek, who later received a Nobel Prize for his work on quarks, write a response. In the response, Frank wrote that it was not a credible scenario to believe that minature black holes could be created.
Well, since then, numerous theorists have asserted to the contrary. Google on "LHC Black Hole" for a plethora of articles on how the LHC might create miniature black holes, which those theorists believe will be harmless because of their faith in Hawking's theory of evaporation via quantum tunneling.
The idea that rare ultra-high-energy cosmic rays striking the moon [or other astronomical body] create natural miniature black holes -- and therefore it is safe to do so in the laboratory -- ignores one very fundamental difference.
In nature, if they are created, they are travelling at about 0.9999c relative to the planet that was struck, and would for example zip through the moon in about 0.1 seconds, very neutrino-like because of their ultra-tiny Schwartzschild radius, and high speed. They would likely not interact at all, or if they did, glom on to perhaps a quark or two, barely decreasing their transit momentum.
At the LHC, however, any such novel particle created would be relatively 'at rest', and be captured by Earth's gravitational field, and would repeatedly orbit through Earth, if stable and not prone to decay. If such miniature black holes don't rapidly evaporate and are produced in copious abundance [1/second by some theories], there is a much greater probability that they will interact and grow larger, compared to what occurs in nature.
There are a host of other problems with the "cosmic ray argument" posited by those who believe it is safe to create miniature black holes. This continuous oversight of obvious flaws in reasoning certaily should give one pause to consider what other oversights might be present in the theories they seek to test.
I am not without some experience in science.
In 1975 I discovered the tracks of a novel particle on a balloon-borne cosmic ray detector. "Evidence for Detection of a Moving Magnetic Monopole", Price et al., Physical Review Letters, August 25, 1975, Volume 35, Number 8. A magnetic monopole was first theorized in 1931 by Paul A.M. Dirac, Proceedings of the Royal Society (London), Series A 133, 60 (1931), and again in Physics Review 74, 817 (1948). While some pundits claimed that the tracks represented a doubly-fragmenting normal nucleus, the data was so far removed from that possibility that it would have been only a one-in-one-billion chance, compared to a novel particle of unknown type. The data fit perfectly with a Dirac monopole.
While I would very much love to see whether we can create a magnetic monopole in a collider, ethically I cannot currently support such because of the risks involved.
For more information, go to: www.LHCdefense.org
Regards,
Walter L. Wagner (Dr.)
Posted By Walter L.Wagner, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/18/07 5:40 PM
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A new web-site has been developed to fund a legal intervention. Please go to www.LHCdefense.org for more information.
Posted By Walter L.Wagner, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/19/07 9:12 PM
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Let me see if I understand this right. The Black hole is supposed to last 1e-27s and would take a minimum of 1e-10s to reach the vessel walls That implies a vessel of about 30cm in radius (about 2 feet in diameter).
How certain of you of Hawking's theory and what is your confidence on that first number?? What if a steering magnet fails and the beam collision occurs a few centemeters off axis? What if the mass is a little higher than expected and the hole doesn't evaporate for 1e-11s? How good is your vacuum? Maybe it picks up just enough mass to fall out of the chamber before "evaporating"? Well I really hope that the CERN guys are right and I am wrong, because the whole thing looks pretty scary to me, and I am a Physicist. Way too many "maybe"s for my comfort level. If I were Alfred E. Neuman I'd say "Yes, me worry!!"
If it were up to me I'd tell them if you want to play with Black Holes then go play outside (of the solar system!!!) They're toying with over six billion human lives, plus a lot more nonhuman ones Unfortunately I don't have the clout to put a stop to this insanity.
Posted By Teresa E Tutt, PhD, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/12/07 5:06 PM
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Fear not! The events at Garabandal preclude any realization of the worldwide disaster potentiated by the LHC. However, this does not absolve the scientific community fro its avaricious efforts to indulge in its endlessly insane projects because they are bored with where they exist in the order of the universe. They dare to speak of "god particles" and dare not to speak of the Creator of the particles -- God. Hence, the gamut of the scientific community bespeaks in blasphemous paradigms -- babbling brooks of benumbed mental aphorisms poised to look like grandiose intellectualisms devised to escape investigation by the common man so as to perennially engage in esoteric scientific endeavors under the cover of "research" in order to keep the bucks rolling in and their cleverly arranged psychotic fantasies supported by endless calculations on infernally complicated computers to arrive at conclusions that escape them at velocities they themselves hypothesize like a dog chasing its short tail with a snapping jaw until they churn themselves into the fabled tornado of mental activity that turns them into butter, but in this case -- a black hole. Indeed, these scentists are already black holes seeking to turn others into black holes. After all, like misery, black holes like company. They will not succeed, for failure is the fiber and fabric of their every mental course. All evils stem from the human will.
Posted By Daniel, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/10/07 10:31 PM
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Nice response by Dave Richards. There's "probably" nothing to worry about. I guess we'll find out when they throw the switch, eh?
Just more evidence that many scientists are not rational people, but irrational and amoral people driven by emotion to function in a rational mode to do their jobs without serious regard for the consequences to us all by what they do.
We're "probably" worrying for nothing, that is true, and when the whole Earth is at risk, why bother even taking more time to consider the danger? After all, the only thing more important than preserving the Earth is preserving the expectations of all the agents who have invested their money in the project. I mean, you can't build something like that and then NOT throw the switch, even IF the whole world was in danger by it.
So damn the black holes and full speed ahead, whiz kids! Woo hoo!
Posted By David Duncan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/9/07 2:55 PM
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Probably nothing to worry about here. If cosmic rays can produce mini black holes, we should expect to see many more supernova in the universe than we do, since mini black holes would be created on the periphery of massive stars regularly and eventually collapse the star's core. But we don't even see enough supernovae to support accepted theories about how they form (core buildup of Iron from fusion). That lack of understanding is underscored by the ~85% shortfall of neutrinos we expect to see from the Sun. Could be related to the question about why Jupiter is still so darned warm after 5 billion years (heat without proton-proton neutrino-generating nuclear fusion?). And if the folks who are backing SED (stochastic electrodynamics) are on the right track, then black holes as a gravitational sigularity probably don't even exist.. instead they might be a much denser form of matter beyond neutron stars.. perhaps a dark quark soup (no atoms or electrons/shells to give off light) that constantly tries to crush itself beyond quarks, but cannot owing to the idea that gravity has a subtle dependence on charge, including the partial charges on quarks.
Posted By Dave Richards, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/19/07 8:30 PM
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