First, I have to say to Richard Carson; I feel you would really like to know what you're talking about, yet are clueless. I especially like your phrase "interstellar stuff" - priceless. Perhaps you will be one of the unwitting physicists who destroys the earth if this group fails to do so.

Secondly, I have to wonder what makes physicists so sure that we "would be able to see" extra large dimensions if they exist? Can the ant see the mountain, even as it dwells within a cave within the mountain? Yet the mountain exists, nonetheless.

At any rate, it should be up and running in the autumn of 2009, from what I've recently seen. Yes, I suppose its too late to stop them now. Besides the $ that have been expended, pride won't allow them to admit the possibility of backing down. And there is also the matter of the quest for knowledge, although what earthly benefit the knowledge would bring is questionable.

A dog sought knowledge of the huge fast-moving beast on which its boy would each day mount in the morning and descend from in the afternoon. It reasoned that if it could only get close enough, it would surely be able to ascertain what manner of beast this was. One afternoon, the dog managed to run fast enough to catch up to the beast. As it darted over to sniff it, the wheels of the school bus crushed the dog's head. At the cost of its life, the dog had learned in its final living moment that this huge thing was not a beast after all. The dog's boy grieved. Ah, the quest for knowledge.


Posted By Ti Bi Pieriyid, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/26/09 3:22 AM

Ricard Carson, when church's are built the money is donated by good people with good intentions. For you to compare the money that was "aquired" by the governments of nations to build sience projects to money donated to build church's, is like comparing the devil to god and calling them equal.

I wish you the best of luck in your experiments. If you manage to achieve your goals without destroying Geneva or the planet then I'm sure the results will give a whole new insight into the way the universe works, I even hope you find proof of the mirror antiworld you are so desperatly looking for. But if you do find it, it doesn't prove there isn't God, in fact it might prove quite the opposite.


Posted By aggy, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/7/09 4:14 PM

The LHC is not dangerous (there's bound to be a couple of small accidents on start-up), and any argument to the contrary has no scientific backing. We do not complain when you spend millions of dollars to build huge golden churches. So don't complain when we do research into something that could eventually lead to interstellar stuff. CERN is respected in the scientific community, and it's only critics are idiots who refuse to believe us. You religious types know nothing of "proof"... Let's just hope that any aliens we eventually meet don't contact you religious people first!


Posted By Ricard Carson, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/23/09 1:22 PM

I have read that if the LHC produces micro black holes that it would take a single one a million years to consume the earth (due to it's incredibly small size). You would have to assume that if 2 micro black holes combined then that length of time would be halved, and if 3 combined it would be reduced to a third etc. That could happen over time considering the LHC could be pumping out up to 10 million mbh's a year...

Our planet has a life expectancy of around 3 billion years of which it should be able to support life for close to a billion (assuming life will continue to modify itself to cope with conditions), so why are these people comfortable with the possibility reducing our planets lifespan by over 99.9%??

There are a few people (physicists are obviously not included) that believe we have immortal souls. If nothing can escape the immense gravitational pull of a black hole does that mean if this planet is consumed by one all of the souls aboard it will also be consumed and destroyed along with all the space, time and matter? As a person who has some understanding of the physics involved I believe that it does.

I don't suppose that any physicist has given even a seconds thought to that, but to some people like me who believe in reincarnation, the thought of our souls being consumed by a black hole in the future is really quite disturbing. It seems that these arrogant atheists believe that they have the right to take away the very thing that god has given us.


Posted By aggy, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/10/09 1:39 PM

Mathew Whitt you are yourself a physicist and say yourself that quote:

"The Large Hadron Collider is designed to expand our understanding of physics, just like any other experiment. Of course, because we don't actually KNOW what's going to happen, it scares the hell out of quite a few people. But we physicists are pretty sure that we know what will happen -- but a good physicist can't actually say anything with 100% certainty"

With regards to being pretty sure about what will happen. When the RHIC was started scientists were pretty sure that what the collider would produce would be a quark gluon plasma, but what it actually produced was more like a liquid.

Surely this alone testifies to the fact of how little scientists actually understand about the physics of this universe and due to that fact alone they should be very cautious about the level of increased risk taken when conducting new experiments. Surely the level of risk that was taken during the RHIC experiments should not be increased by much if by any at all, until there is some understanding of why there was a liquid formed and not a gas as expected.

Also, the Bose Einstein condensate experiments at the RHIC are a prime example of how reckless scientists are. They create a new substance and before you know it they are manipulating it in very dangerous ways to see what will happen, and what happened? IT EXPLODED!! And very possibly created a micro black hole, (or should I say singularity, whatever), and scientists say we have nothing to fear from their experiments, what a joke.

Physicists say that as long as there is no such thing as large extra dimensions then the LHC will operate safely, and that large extra dimensions are not possible because we would be able to see them if they did exist. So if scientists know very little about the structure of universe (as you say yourself) then how can you be so sure that large extra dimensions don't exist??

We live in a universe of 3 spacial dimensions...no more, so if string theory is correct how can extra dimensions exist in a 3 dimensional world, simple...they can't. However there is another dimension in this universe, and regardless of your opinion it has been largely accepted as being a dimension...TIME.

Very little is known about time and how it interacts with our universe, only very vague calculations have been made, such as Einstein's which calculates that time is somehow related to the speed of light... The faster an object travels the more time will slow down for that object if observed from a stationary object, and that the passing of time by the object itself will seem to remain unchanged, this is a theory that has already been proven during apollo missions etc. Then there is the theory that as you approach a black hole time is distorted and at the singularity non existent.

So time is obviously a very important dimension in fabric if this universe. Time has got properties for which words haven't yet even been invented to describe, such as the slowing down of time for an object when it accelerates when observed from a stationary object, or the time dilation that an accelerating object experiences but cannot observe itself... and so on.

So what if all the atoms that exist in this universe also exist in another universe that is divided from this one by time itself. This would explain many of the forces that cannot be explained by modern day physics and would be a large step in understanding a "theory of everything".
Because we have next to zero understanding of how time interacts with the spacial and material properties of this universe it is very reckless and foolhardy to boldly proclaim that large extra dimensions do not exist when you have little or no understanding of how the very fabric of the universe interacts (spacetime or space/time).

Could it not be possible that Steven Hawkings initial findings on black holes was correct and they link parallel universes? As his brain has aged and cells have died, why would he be cleverer in his 60's than he was in his 30's.

Maybe a black hole could be better described as being a time hole, a point at where 2 or more spatial dimensions are connected by a very large gravitational distortion of time itself.

So if large extra dimensions actually do exist but are hidden by time "flowing" at "different rates" in the extra (or parallel) spacial dimensions (like I said previously, words haven't even yet been invented to describe the various properties of time), then what would happen at the LHC during the coming experiments, possible calamity and you know it.


Posted By anon, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/9/09 2:22 PM

Picture this: astronauts orbiting in the International Space Station when the LHC is finally turned on (sometime in 2009).

Let's say a black hole is created that soon gobbles up the earth (despite the physicists' assurances that this is impossible).

Well, wouldn't it be funny if the astronauts looked out of their porthole towards the earth and found that it had disappeared? Their orbit would remain unchanged - for instead of orbiting the earth they'd be orbiting a black hole of identical mass - and about the size of an orange.

Posted By Nicolas Uribe, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 1/27/09 5:41 PM

It ain't gonna happen until Spring 2009...

"GENEVA (AP) - Scientists expect startup glitches in the massive, complex machines they use to smash atoms.

But the unique qualities of the world's largest particle collider mean that the meltdown of a small electrical connection could delay its groundbreaking research until next year, scientists said Sunday.

Because the Large Hadron Collider operates at near absolute zero - colder than outer space - the damaged area must be warmed to a temperature where humans can work. That takes about a month. Then it has to be re-chilled for another month.

As a result, the equipment may not be running again before the planned shutdown of the equipment for the winter to reduce electricity costs. That means Friday's meltdown could end up putting off high-energy collisions of particles - the machine's ultimate objective - until 2009.

"Hopefully we'll come online and go quickly to full energy a few months into 2009 so in the long term, this may not end up being such a large delay in the physics program," Seth Zenz, a graduate student from the University of California, wrote on the site of the U.S. physicists working at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN."


Posted By Sven e, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/21/08 8:10 PM

"Atom Smasher down for 2 months...

"The world's largest atom smasher -- which was launched with great fanfare earlier this month -- is more badly damaged than previously thought and will be out of commission for at least two months, its operators said today. A sector of the Large Hadron Collider will have to be warmed up well above the absolute zero temperature used for operations so that repairs can be made."

Remember: No one can ever prove that the LHC is safe, because whatever goes wrong there in the line of, say, stable micro black holes building up, this will happen silently, unnoticed and UNDETECTABLE by anyone and anything. And: It will be IRREVERSIBLE. That's why the name DOOMSDAY

MACHINE is 100 per cent appropriate. The only sign of a catastrophe of that kind will be a world-wide earthquake on a never-seen & never-imagined scale - but this scenario will happen only a few minutes before the collapse.

So don't believe anyone who tells you after the collisions have started (autumn 2008) that since the world is this there, nothing serious has happened. It is to be expected that CERN will constantly release such appeasing and well-sounding press notices, and, of course ignorant journalists will publish them uncritically.

If the collider isn't stopped before the first collision starts, it'll be TOO LATE.



Posted By brickinthewall, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/20/08 3:22 AM

They fired it up and it just didn't work, nothing happened -- just a big bang sound.

"GENEVA, Switzerland (AP) -- A 30-ton transformer that cools the world's largest particle collider malfunctioned, forcing physicists to stop using the atom smasher just a day after launching it to great fanfare, the European Organization for Nuclear Research said Thursday.

"The faulty transformer has been replaced and the ring in the 17-mile circular tunnel under the Swiss-French border has been cooled back down to near absolute zero -- or minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit -- the most efficient operating temperature, said a statement by CERN, as the organization is known.

"When the transformer malfunctioned, operating temperatures rose from below 2 Kelvin to 4.5 Kelvin -- warmer than the normal operating temperature.

"The Large Hadron Collider was launched September 10, when scientists circled a beam of protons in a clockwise direction at the speed of light. That was followed by a counterclockwise beam.

"'Several hundred orbits' were made, said the statement.

"On the evening of September 11, scientists were able to control the counterclockwise beam with equipment that keeps the protons bunched tightly and ready for collisions before the transformer failed and the system was shut down, the statement said.

"Now that the transformer has been replaced and the equipment rechilled, a similar attempt is expected shortly to tighten the clockwise beam and prepare experiments in coming weeks, it said."

Just in case things go from bad to badder, 6,000 scientists have just sent out their resumes...

Posted By Raymond, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/15/08 3:50 AM

Matthew Whitt, I haven't encountered many like you who seem to be willing to enter a reasonable dispute with the non-physicist section. In other forums I noticed a lot of arrogance amongst scientists, and real scientific argumentation is rare. Look at the contributions by Agro or brickinthewall and others in this forum and realize that these people are really SCARED.

In India thousands of frightened people gathered in temples and one girl killed herself. I have been waking up in cold sweat at night - because I, too, am SCARED. And then read the replies from scientists in this forum who do or do not work for CERN. Sarcasm & ridicule is all we get. (You are obviously an exception & so is casmiki, as it seems.)

Furthermore: If you use the CERN website facility "Ask an expert", you get a seemingly ready-made answer that doesn't match your question, or you don't receive an answer at all. If you get an answer, it is as vague and based on unproven hypotheses as the stuff that you can read on the official CERN website. I'm sick and tired of reading about stupid "Hawking radiation" (which is a whole load of rubbish) and other fancy ideas conceived by other nerds.

You're asking for a concretion of my accusation that I feel I'm misinformed by CERN. I have already given one in my last contribution in this forum. Can anyone tell me if I'm wrong about the lead proton head-on collision in space?

How come a renowned astrophysicist such as Sir Martin Rees mentioned a few frightening collider-scenarios in his book "Our final hour" (chapter 9)? Does he know less than others?

Why do I read in the press over and over again that "CERN says the experiments are safe"? Of course, CERN says that - they have to say that. McDonald's executives will of course always say that their food is good for you. Where are the independent voices? Where are the INDEPENDENT SAFETY REPORTS?


Posted By Eric, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/14/08 3:06 PM

Eric, what makes you so convinced that you're being lied to by the CERN scientists? It seems that you're claiming we physicists here are intentionally feeding out false information to the public about our experiments.

Please don't direct accusations towards the scientific academia that we are unable to provide evidence to back up our claims -- I'm trying very hard to get any decisive or coherent evidence for claims against the LHC, and I'm finding it extremely difficult to come up with anything except ranting and raving that uses scientific formulae in improper and non-contextual ways.


Posted By Matthew Whitt, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/13/08 2:06 PM

I'm sorry, Matthew Whitt, but as long as I know that I am not told the truth by CERN people who seem to be in charge of appeasement propaganda, I won't relax about the LHC, and I feel I'm not alone here.

We're told that what happens in space is much more energetic than what could ever be done in the LHC, but who is convinced by that? The truth is that NOWHERE in space you'll be able to observe two lead protons being smashed in a precise head-on collision within a massive system that can be compared to our planet earth. And this is only ONE of the many points that I feel pretty deceived about by CERN.

It's easy to manipulate the public if you have several thousand physicists behind you, especially if it comes to a scientific discipline like particle physics that your ordinary citizen doesn't haven't a clue.

Unfortunately, even openly speaking critics like Otto Roesler and others aren't always convincing in their line of argument. But there are a lot of critical physicists who are just afraid to open their mouths because of professional repercussions. So you only find their voices disguised in blog forums.

The numerous CERN publications don't AT ALL make me feel that you guys know what you're doing - if you did, you would have better arguments without the bull.



Posted By Eric, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/13/08 11:34 AM

I'm definitely surprised by the responses on here, most of which seem to be geared at condemning the LHC's use as a weapon or doomsday device.

I'll be the first to admit that we don't know everything about the universe. In fact, compared with all the stuff that's LEFT for us to learn, we know JACK SH*T. And it seems to be that what we're good at is blowing up crap with all the new things we learn about. Smelting led to metal weapons. Chemical research led to firearms and explosives. And perhaps the most gratuitous of all, nuclear physics led to the atomic weapon. It seems natural to apply this pattern to the research going on at CERN.

But, that's not really the case.

LHC is designed to accelerate small particles to high velocities (somewhere around 99.99997% the speed of light, or so) and collide them to analyze their constituent components. In other words, we smash things together really damn hard to see what's inside. This could be somewhat analogous to examining a rock; we can easily see the outside of the rock, and determine the properties of it's surface. However, if we wanted to look at what minerals the rock is made of, we need to break it up. It's the same with atoms. We need to smash them together to see what sub-atomic particles come out of it. Having said all of this, I'd like to address a few points:

1. The LHC will create black holes...

This is somewhat true. A more accurate term would be "singularity", as the normal consensus of a black hole is some roaring black sphere in space that eats anything that comes close. A "black hole" is really any mass that has shrunk below it's Schwartzchild Radius, which is really very small for any amount of matter. The LHC will probably be making some "black holes" rather often, but they'll be infinitesimally small (i.e. REALLY tiny).

2. ... that will destroy the Earth...

I've started to become somewhat depressed when I hear people bring this up so often. I believe that the previous poster "casmiki" performed the necessary equations to prove that any singularities produced by the LHC can in no way pose any real harm to the Earth.

3. ... or be weaponized by the military.

Now, I know that it's been previously stated that scientists can never (realistically) be absolutely positive about anything. Except this. In NO WAY can a black hole be CREATED, CONTAINED, AND USED by any form of military on Earth. For any singularity to have any damaging effect on it's surroundings, it would need to have an incredible gravity well (i.e. it needs to be freakin' huge). Couple of problems here; we can't actually make something that massive. I mean it. We simply CAN'T. It is beyond our abilities. If we DO manage to create one, we can't contain it. A black hole is destructive by means of it's gravity. We have no way to block the gravity created by something.

4. The LHC will create antimatter...

Yep, that's what they're hoping for. Powerful collisions between two atoms just might create enough energy for some antimatter to be created (from the energy itself, via E=MC^2).

5. ... that will destroy the Earth...

YES, it is true that when matter an antimatter collide, both will be annihilated with an incredible amount of energy. However, with the amount of antimatter that the LHC is going to be producing, the resulting energy release would have a rather pitiful flash of light, and not much else. Really, nothing to worry about there.

6. ... or be weaponized by the military.

MAYBE in the far-flung future, but as of now, it is FAR to costly to actually manufacture antimatter. The LHC will be doing this ATOM BY ATOM, not churning out a block of the stuff every time they switch it on. For enough antimatter to be made to create an effective bomb, you'd run the risk of bankrupting the United States (which, admittedly, at this point would not be that difficult). It is much more effective to simply drop a MOAB on someone than use an antimatter nuke or whatnot.

The Large Hadron Collider is designed to expand our understanding of physics, just like any other experiment. Of course, because we don't actually KNOW what's going to happen, it scares the hell out of quite a few people. But we physicists are pretty sure that we know what will happen -- but a good physicist can't actually say anything with 100% certainty.



Posted By Matthew Whitt, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/12/08 10:36 PM

"Leave physics to the physicists"??? Such baloney!

First of all, who do physicists who talk like this think they are that they can claim such? Are they so ignorant that they think they KNOW everything? That they can assess everything? Do they really mean no one else has a clue? Or that no one else is allowed to participate in the discourse about something that seems to affect THE WHOLE WORLD? Are they so blown-up and big-headed that they think they can do unlimited what they want just because they have an academic title?

Secondly, those self-appointed masters of the world know nothing substantial about the forces that keep the universe together! Particle-physics is still full of riddles & miracles and their "science" is no more than guess work. It's full of hypotheses. They are still not wiser than scientists & alchemists a thousand years ago - they only have a few more names for particles. That's particle-physicists complex, and hence their megalomania. And thus they say: Leave physics to the physicists, because they have nothing else to say. Just hot air. The same stupid references to Hawking radiation and all that absolutely unproven bullshit. What they do we could as well call mathematicians playing Russian roulette saying we know what we are doing because we can figure out the risk.

I'm sick of bloody scientists 'ONLY' doing SCIENCE. It's bloody 'SCIENCE' - not least physics - that has caused misery in this world again and again, because science never knows any limits. The next collider is already waiting, by the way: The INTERNATIONAL LINEAR COLLIDER. Even bigger, greater, madder.

WHEN IS THE MADNESS GOING TO STOP???

Posted By Eric, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/10/08 4:03 PM

I wonder if they put all the brain power and money towards the current problems of the world like global warming, ozone, melting ice cap, gang bangers, they might make this a better world.

Even if nothing happens, the destructive benifits that come from these experiments will still be the end of days.


Posted By BRUCE, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/10/08 3:15 PM

That CERN bugger in charge said today that "humanity is thirsty for knowledge". At the moment I feel we're thirsty for something else. I personally am thirsty for that blasted thing to blow up the millisecond at which the first collision starts. It might be the greatest blessing for the coming generations.

Posted By brickinthewall, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/10/08 1:12 PM

If, in a worse case scenario, the facility were to blow up and kill everyone in the area -- fine!

BUT, when there is the slightest chance it could kill us all, I don't remember getting a say in this project. That being said, ALL people should have a vote in whether or not to pull the trigger...

Besides, spending 10 billion bucks to see how the universe formed while so many people are unemployed is pretty idiotic in my book.



Posted By BigJoe, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/10/08 10:58 AM

Look on the bright side.... They nearly blew themselves up last time, this time they will probably succeed and we can use all the wages of the 6,300+ scientists (which we fund) to help rebuild parts of Switzerland and France.

Posted By K.C. Statham, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/10/08 5:48 AM

As we all know the powers that perform the actions that dictate our future are relative to the outcry of our voices. It is only when we stand together and make our voices heard and demand that the will of the the people... and the fate of the human race as a general be respected and not be overlooked at the price of progression.

We can speculate, debate and test this outcome until theorem becomes theory but at what price must we pay to discover the next chapter of humanity. It is hardly the same as sailing a boat out west to see if we fall off of the edge of the earth into space.

Posted By Shawn, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/9/08 8:13 PM

Well if anyone was to destroy the earth, the last people I would think of is the French , aliens maybe, terrorists possibly -- but the French ??? Seriously ??? Ha, ha, ha...


Posted By billy lord, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/9/08 3:30 PM

They should put all of this effort into curing cancer and aids!


Posted By not given, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/9/08 10:05 AM

There are many beautiful things on this planet, and though I am certainly not religious, life on earth has been evidently proven as a miracle.
Some things in life are better left alone, it's not just human existance that we are putting at risk, more importantly it's the innocent world of nature. Why do human beings insist on destroying all things of true beauty and marvel with arrogant disregard? Answer that Mr Hawking!!

Human beings will not be satisfied until there is no life left in this part of the universe

Posted By Expletive, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/9/08 1:06 AM

Well, not being a Physicist, what I do understand though is that nobody knows exactly what will happen - this is indisputable as I understand it. Some of the comments on this board, allegedly from Physicists, are disgraceful in that they merely consist of scoffing at critics of the collider. I may not know what a strangelet is, but I do know arrogance when I see it. The fact that there is any scientific opinion calling in to question the safety of this collider means that the projects physicists have an absolute obligation to satisfy the general public of the safety of this device. After all, who paid for this thing? If it wasn't for the billions of dollars of public money given to this project these scientists would be knocking pool balls together in High School physics classes.


Posted By S Jamieson, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/8/08 4:05 PM

A dangerous black hole would require much more mass than could possibly be run through this instrument in a million years - even if you could get it all to stick together while you were doing it.

It would be nice if they ran France through it however!


Posted By Michael C., www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/8/08 1:17 PM

You know I have 2 children, 1 starting his work life as a roof tiler my other one got his first job last week.
I love them to bits and there is no 2 ways about it, things can go wrong with this experiment and even you critics know that.
My problem is that this is not put to world opinion, that, we as a planet make the decision, that my kids have a chance to say they are willing to not have a future if this go's wrong, or to say go for it.
We have progressed so fast with great breakthrough's but a line has to be drawn.
Who was the smart cookie who suggested to test this on the planet itself, ( Wanker ). I think we as a world should take the matter into our own hands and put on trial any bastard who is willing to even conceive an experiment like this and label it murder by good intentions and hang the bastards. Yes we saw the first nuclear test and survived, and Y2k, and survive but I believe in three strikes and your out, Stop messing with nature and just let things be as they are and try to better this planet instead of killing it.

It is ignorance that is the worst killer and religion of course and now we have science in the same ball park, and I always thought I could trust science to find solutions and not create problems like this.

Science to me is about curing cancer, creating drought friendly crops, and all things to better mankind, not creating potentialy earth killing experiments for what, to say, Oh look there it is hmm that was good. and a pat on the back.

I am disappointed with governments not making much of a voice about this or to even reassure country's.

I agree there is more to this than meets the eye and it all comes down to the dollar I bet.

Well all you idiots that's what you get for allowing governments to be above the law and not accountable for there actions, We are all slaves and always have been slaves but in a different form.

You take out a loan for a house for 30 years and work your guts off, giving the government a percent of your blood, sweat and tears each week on top of paying off the morgage, you get a credit card and blah blah and cannot do anything else but work because if you try to relax you will lose the lot and by the time you retire you spend the rest of your life paying for medical costs due to your old age and stress related problems and injury's that occurred while working for the man.
That is legalized slavery and is called creating a better economy.
You know the funny thing is if this all go's wrong you all did it for nothing.

SO EVERYBODY DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, EVEN BLOODY STORM THE FACILITY AND PUT THESE BASTARDS TO TRIAL BECAUSE IT IS YOUR LIFE AND HARD WORK AND CHILDREN THEY ARE MESSING WITH. I MEAN MILLIONS HAVE DIED IN WARS TO PRESERVE THE RIGHT FOR FREEDOM AND LIFE AND HERE WE ARE ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN. WHAT AN INSULT TO EVERYONE WHO HAS DIED IN A WAR, AND EUROPE SHOULD BE THE ONE'S MORE THAN AWARE OF THOSE SACRIFICES THAN ANYONE ELSE, THIS IS JUST FAR TO RISKY AND TO MANY MAY AND MAY NOT'S. SO C'MON EUROPE GO TO THE FREAKING SITE AND BRING THE PLACE DOWN AND SHOW THE WORLDS GOVENMENTS THAT IF YOU MESS WITH THE PEOPLE AND AND THE PLANET AND POTENTIALY RISK THERE LIVES, THE PEOPLE WILL FIGHT AND DIE FOR THE RIGHT TO KEEP THIS PLANET SAFE
I REALLY MEAN IT IF YOU ARE IN EUROPE, KICK THERE ARSES

Posted By Agro, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/8/08 11:15 AM

Oh well, look on the bright side. France wil be the first to go.

Posted By Agincourt, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/8/08 6:41 AM

Goes to show anybody can post anything on the internet. No references to back up any claims spewed on this website.

Posted By John Zahn, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/7/08 6:09 PM

Sounds to me like after however billion pounds and manhours this has taken, they are taking a cheap option. No experiement of this scale should be carried out on the planet surface. Lets bear in mind they are trying to recreate the big bang.. albeit on a small scale, they are trying to replicate the scientific explantion for life, the universe and everything.

This should be done in outer space, no where else.. and if that sticks another 20-40 years onto this experiement being run, so be it.

Posted By Morgan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/6/08 3:25 PM

In Roessler's report, I don't note any real maths regarding the interaction of subatomic particles. It seems that there are three schools of thought on the behavior of MBH's;
1. They could lose energy and dissipate relatively quickly due to Hawking Radiation
2. They could remain stable and accrete matter as it comes within a critical radius of the MBH's gravitational field
3. The MBH could draw in subatomic particles in such a way as to generate a secondary attractive field, which would increase the critical radius and thus increase the rate of accretion.

Hawking Radiation might not exist, that's the main cause for concern in accretion: would a stable MBH accrete matter?
I'll tackle this in reverse order...

Regarding point #3:
As matter approaches the MBH, it will become more and more unable to affect other matter outside the MBH; this is simple relativity, as something moving at the speed of light away from you cannot possibly affect you, ever. It just won't happen. Therefore, the assumption that "subatomic particles (electrons and protons?) will generate some electromagnetic force" falls apart when it meets general relativity.

For the sake of argument, I'll let that slide. So, Physics 101: an electron traveling rapidly in a circle will generate a uniform magnetic field normal to the plane of the circle. If you use the formula F = qv * B (where F = force, q = charge, v = velocity, and B = mag field), Newton's second law (F = ma), and radial acceleration (a = v^2 / r), you could simplify the following equation:

B = m*v*q/r (for a perfectly radially-traveling charged particle, being spun around a fixed point with known force and velocity, the resulting magnetic field would be equal to "B").

Using charge of an electron = 1.602 x10^-19 coulombs
Speed of light = 2.9979 x 10^8 m/s
Mass of an electron = 9.109 x 10^-31 kg
Schwarzschild Radius of MBH = 2.970 x 10^-35 m

Plugging in and solving, I get the following: if an electron were circling a Micro-Black-Hole at its smallest possible radius at the speed of light, it would still generate a magnetic field of only 1.47 x 10^-6 T... that's less than 1.5 micro-Tesla's... not remotely enough to affect the path of any other electrons not-already-doomed by the gravitational pull of the MBH.

Regarding point #2:
Ok, so let's say that there's no EM-field created. There's still gravity, right? That would still suck in matter, right? I did the math on this, too. Let's say you have a pretty dense metal, like Tungsten (density 19250 kg/m^3), which has a crystal alignment of cubic-body centered. (I'm using a dense metal as an example, as an MBH would be much more likely to run into a Tungsten atom than, say, an atom in an Oxygen molecule.) After some math, I found that the diameter of a tungsten atom is about 3.038 x 10^-10 m, a radius of 1.519 x 10^-10 m.

The bonding energy of Tungsten is 849 kJ/mol, or 1.4098 x 10^-18 J/atom. This is the work required to separate a single atom from its bonded pair. An MBH could have an initial mass of 2.0 x 10^-8 kg and Schwartzschild Radius of 2.9698 x 10^-35 m. So, what is the critical radius for an MBH to get close enough to accrete a single Tungsten atom's nucleus?

Using E = integral(F ds) where s refers to position (in this case, now a vector), and F = Gm1m2/(r^2) which is the Universal Law of Gravitation, I get:

W = G* m1* m2 / r... W = work done by the MBH, G = constant, m1 = MBH mass, m2 = nucleus (atomic) mass, and r = the distance. This is the result of the integral between the critical radius (Rc) and the Schwartzschild Radius (Rs) to "capture" a nearby nucleus. Solving down, I got Rc = 2.9699 x 10^-35 m. Huh.

So, given that the radius of a Tungsten atom is on the order of 1.5 x 10^-10 m, and Rc for an MBH vs Tungsten is on the order of 3.0 x 10^-35 m, that is a difference of 25 orders of magnitude.

25 orders of magnitude is the same difference that separates the size of an amoeba to the size of our galaxy. I'm not kidding, look that up. What are the odds that an MBH is going to actually bump into the nucleus of the atom and pick it up along its path? And if it does, the MBH would undergo an increase in mass of 1 x 10^-17 percent. That's akin to shooting a blue whale at the sun; the sun, which is so massive that it holds our entire planet (and 7 others), and all of the blue whales on all of them (heh) in constant orbit. The odds that any interaction could possibly take place are negligible, and on the incredibly rare occasion that any mass at all could -ever- be accreted, it would have such little effect on the absorbing MBH that it might as well not bother going through the trouble in the first place.

Conclusion
Even giving *generous* assumptions to the theories involved in mass accretion in MBH behavior, it is still impossible that MBH's could ever accrete enough mass to affect any macroscopic particles. The numbers simply aren't there.

Posted By casmiki, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/6/08 12:19 PM

SHOULD IT REALLY BE THE DECISION OF SO FEW TO DO SOMETHING THAT COULD AFFECT THE LIVES OF SO MANY?

HOW CAN WE ALLOW THESE IRRESPONSIBLE INDIIDUALS TO TAKE EVERYONES LIFE INTO THEIR HANDS, BLIND TO THE POTENTIALLY EFFECTS, ALL IN THE INTEREST OF THEIR OWN SELFISH PERSUIT FOR SOME SORT OF KNOWLEDGE BASED SUPERIORITY. HOW MUCH CLOSER COULD WE HAVE GOT TO DOING SOMETHING THAT WOULD HELP THE HUMAN RACE, LIKE CURING CANCER, WITH THIS MONEY.

IF THEY WANT DARK MATTER, LETS FIRE THEM INTO A BLACK HOLE THEN THEY WONT HURT ANYBODY BUT THEMSELVES.


Posted By pete, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/4/08 5:30 AM

What worries me most is the fact that not a single LHC scientist knows what that experiment can bring as a result -- nor what the downside consequencies are of such an experiment?


Posted By Eddie, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/3/08 12:48 PM

And who said the French were cowards?

I just hope France's black hole doesn't open a portal to Hell or something. There are enough Demoncrats here already.


Posted By Justin Case, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/2/08 10:25 PM

Death is somthing that's unavoidable. I say give it a go -- if it ends the world, so be it. If it does work, then we French would have achieved something truly beautiful.

I say: PRESS THE BUTTON! -- But first let me get a bottle bordeaux and a wheel of chesse...


Posted By PoisoN, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/2/08 4:38 PM

What is the problem with all you doubters out there? If the LHC works, we, as a race, will benefit vastly from this experiment. If it goes wrong and does produce a self-sustainable black hole, don't worry, we, including the French, will be gone in roughly 4 to 7 minutes anyway!



Posted By glenn daley, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/2/08 10:15 AM

I never ever trusted the french and this thing is the obvious reason why!!!


Posted By Jay, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/1/08 11:51 AM

I truly think that it would be wiser if here in europe we would keep these kind of experiments in secret.

Posted By altair, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 9/1/08 6:26 AM

Who would think something that unstable would be a good idea? From the way it sounds, this has to go perfect to not kills us all.


Posted By Myself, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/30/08 11:07 AM

If we are good at learning from our mistakes then I pray that God allows us to learn from this one: Numbers ... about 300 trillion protons at a time traveling the ring 11,000 times a second making 800 million collisions a second to create one micro black black hole per second and a Higgs particle per day. This is a high power for an untested heavy industry.

Two beams of less atoms than in a small spray can with enough energy to melt a tonne of copper and with the impact of a 200 tonne 200 km/hr train. I have worked with trains and it is a heavy industry with a long documented history of mistakes. Mistakes that have made it the safe mode of transport it is today and yet people still get killed in train accidents. There has not yet been that one train accident with the potential to destroy the world.

So many questions. Micro black holes. Trains use fail safe and proven stopping systems. What is the fail safe and the proven system for removing unwanted micro black holes once they are in the earth?


Posted By Michael Noonan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/25/08 11:04 AM

Cross your fingers everybody. Everybody is human and humans are good at making mistakes. Unfortunately this may be one we cannot learn from

Posted By Brett, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/20/08 6:42 AM

On one hand ...I oppose conducting experiments this potentially dangerous. Yes a black hole is possible and since Hawking was wrong about black holes (among may other things) and the first law of thermodynamics, (duh)...that means this small black hole could be stable. Normally I would agree that a stable black hole must be the result of a massive collapse such as a star imploding...BUT these particle collisions are contrived in a stable environment. So on one hand it would be a terrible tragedy if the collisions caused a stable black hole, this planet is far too precious to fall victim to such silliness.

Posted By Nexxus, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/12/08 8:53 AM

So, the atheists finally get to find out if they're right. If there is a God (S)he's surely going to be pissed. I'm only an English teacher, but even I am aware that very small things can be more powerful than very large things in certain circumstances. Wasn't all of the energy that caused The Big Bang contained in an area as small (or smaller ?) than a pin-head?

Has that holy grail of science - the theory of everything - been elucidated? Can Einstein finally sleep easy?!! Has S H finished looking into the mechanics of the very small and the very large?

If space goes on forever then size does not matter. How do you measure something that infinite. In two words, you can't. How big is a pin head?!!!

Sorry for rambling guys, and girls, but if a thicko like me is worried then please don't flip that flipping switch.

Posted By paul thompson, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/10/08 8:43 AM

On the matter of time a worm hole could be one of the worst results possible. For a start the mathematics used is time based half wave forward and half wave backward to guess where the particle should be. Then transferred to a new mathematics with the position information but without the time component.

So what does it mean? If matter is a stable form of wormhole connected forwards and backwards in time then energizing one to become super large might cause an energy flare up a long way back or forward in time through where that particle has been. The obvious candidates are the scientists themselves with flakes of skin dropped as the normal process of human shedding goes on.

But we are looking at something with just the bump of a mosquito ... right? Yes right per proton although each second 800 million protons with about the kinetic energy of a 200 mile an hour freight train weighing in at some 200 tons. How far could one selectively change prehistory to a point where certain structures were partially built or placed differently. How would you cope with a time line that updated and you were trapped within a wall. Would people we know still exist or ourselves?

What happens to us if we are suddenly removed from physical existence along with the conscious energy of all of humanity at a given point and we are replaced by someone or something else. If you like satanic overtones then perhaps this is the ride of a lifetime.

It is not my cup of tea thank you very much.

Posted By Michael Noonan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/30/08 3:35 PM

How DID that "accident" happen last year on March 27 2007? Does this mean that even intelligent physicists and scientists are capable of miscalculating and making mistakes?

I have yet to meet a human, physicist or not, that can inspire complete confidence, especially when they seem to "know" so much about the "UNknown"!?

Of course, one can also find ways to justify the phenomenal waste of billions of dollars on this gigantic science "experiment" when millions of people could have been provided with adequate shelter and food around the world instead!

"The needs of the many (6,300 or so) outweigh the needs of the few (the rest of the "common folk" that inhabit the earth)?!

Posted By BL, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/24/08 7:59 PM

I'm a physicist and this "article" just made me laugh to death! Leave physics to us physicists!


Posted By Andrea, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/24/08 11:48 AM

Now that the machine is built it will be used. Hitler had the same problem but in his case it was military. So it is not going to just go away (but we might!).

Posted By Michael Noonan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/16/08 3:02 PM

To recreate conditions seen less than a trillionth of a second after the big bang would mean recreating the big bang in a whole wouldnt it? Or are these guys just building a 6 billion $ VCR that lets them fast forward to less than a trillionth of a second after time started.

Second - Tens of millions of collisions every second will be taking place, each collision having a 99.99% chance of not making a black hole that will suck everything in. I assume that would put the chances of making a single black hole or alot of them well over 100% -- I know its higher, but 100% is just a ballpark estimate.

All this risk is to find out about the origins of "STUFF" as the video on lhcdefense.org stated ... After every atom in my body gets a makeover please believe me, I'm going to be quite angry!

Posted By David R, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/16/08 3:55 AM

Since this thing can create a black-hole and kill us all, you really should not test it. :(


Posted By hailey, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/3/08 3:40 PM

If we're really gonna do this and risk everything, at least give us more time to colonize space and move as far away as possible that way we aren't all caught off guard. That way, worst comes to worst, at least we can watch the show before we star in it...


Posted By derek L., www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/1/08 10:05 PM

If the CERN is safe why would anyone bother to write such a scientific theroy on the possibilities of black holes forming in the Earth's center causing the destructuion of Earth? I agree the chances are almost nill, however, creating a machine that even remotely could end life on Earth as we know it is a little crazy at best!


Posted By Charlie Time, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/1/08 9:04 AM

This article is INSANELY biased, and you've even gone so far as to claim the purpose is to CREATE black holes, which couldn't be further from the truth. Leave the science to the scientists!


Posted By R. Lan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/1/08 12:07 AM

Goodby cruel world, we are off to Mars...


Posted By Brian, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/29/08 9:54 AM

I get a kick out of 99.9% chance that everything will be okay!


Posted By James, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/29/08 8:02 AM

I suppose that LHC experiment will be completely silent. However, negative consequences inside the human noosphere will be distributed gradually and almost imperceptibly -- new strange illnesses, fatigue, increased frequency of depressions and psychic deviations. The powerful LHC electromagnet may strongly interfere with the system of collective subconsciousnesses (noosphere).

These arrogant pseudoscientists think they know everything about this world. But all they really know is a fake atheistic psychology.

LHC people are terrorists! Poor innocent Europeans even do not know that they are hostages. Europe is doomed. It is possible that massive psychic deviations and very strange illnesses may be observed during these 2008-2012 years.

STOP LHC TERRORISTS !!!

Posted By Bill White, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/24/08 2:34 PM

Fundemental research? Yes -- But let's not be naive. It will lead to the development of "cleaner" nuclear bombs. I am sure that these people at CERN would be very excited if you could design and use mini-black holes bombs on Iran for example...

Posted By Marc Authier, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/6/08 10:48 PM

Having read there is no certainty as to the actual outcome of this experiment it would seem the agenda for conducting it is quite suspect.

If a person of average intelligence can see the danger of this device, and I do, then why are these geniuses willing to except odds of 99.999% that it is safe?!?

Until it can be proven safe I point to a "recent" discovery of a Black hole existing in a place that "in theory" wasn't "thought to be possible"; Wake up people! We are hardly even a blip on the electromagnetic map. We need to stop this before we become the next black hole that shouldn't exist where it does.


Posted By Scott Lyle, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/27/08 5:16 AM

The scientists involved should read Nicholas Taleb's book "The Black Swan". It appears to me that they are inhabitants of "moderistan" which limits their capacity to correctly predict what may well be an "extremistan" event.

Sol Davidson


Posted By sol davidson, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/26/08 10:13 AM

How about we nuke the place before the thing turns on? Billions of dollars right down the Frigging toliet! That wouldn't do no harm right? Its not turned on if we nuke it, nothing will go wrong.


Posted By Matthew, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/22/08 5:39 PM

Black holes are dependent on the weak force called gravity which is dependent on mass. A black hole requires an enormous amount of mass to make the weak force so strong that even light cannot escape. A black hole can only be created by a massive object imploding (for lack of a better term). I do not think one, two or a million atoms would have enough mass to generate the same gravitational effects of an imploded star. And having very little if any of the other three forces the end resullt would be an object similar to a neutron only smaller.

Posted By Scott Elbert, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/18/08 2:43 AM

Now we know why CETI has not detected any radio transmissions from space. Perhaps any civilization that is intelligent enough to harness radio also builds particle colliders, and quickly destroys itself. Perhaps they even build the collider first, and never even get a chance to transmit anything.

ADIOS MUCHACHOS


Posted By Jeff Jonas, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/17/08 7:01 PM

i think we should all just go out and have lots of random sex before the bloody French do us all in.

Posted By dr. r sole, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/12/08 7:21 AM

"But Dr. Rossler has a potential solution. He proposes to rebuild the LHC on the moon. Prof. Otto E. Rossler says he has calculated the cost for running the LHC on the moon and they are only 2-3 times higher than here on Earth. Proving his great humor, Prof. Otto E. Rossler continued to say that then we could watch the moon getting eaten up by the black hole - like in Disneyland. The CERN has not reacted to Prof. Otto E. Rossler's thesis and his suggestions, but has also not refuted his thesis."

Hmm...I'm not an expert in the field, unlike the good professor, but I was question his cost predictions for running the LHC on the moon...

First of all, we would have to build a new particle collider when we've just build one. Remember, the LHC is only the latest incarnation of CERN. I believe it is basically a refit of the LEP. To build on the moon would require building it from scratch.

Shipping materials into space is EXTREMELY expensive. A space shuttle launch costs $110,000,000 and each shuttle can carry just under 30 tonnes. You've then got to account for living accomodation for the physicists, their transport etc. Not to mention the research costs of actually developing the technology to feasibly live on the moon. Etc etc etc.

As I said, I'm no expert but I'd suggest that anyone who calculated the running costs of a large facility on earth to be 2-3 times less than the costs of creating and running that same facility on the moon isn't particularly credible.

Also, creating a black hole on the moon would still have dire, if not fatal affects on the Earth..

Posted By Kiran, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/11/08 9:54 AM

I am unsure why you are drawing attention to the explosion in Cern as support to your fears over the doomsday senario. The facility will have been built and designed by engineers under the specifications of physicists. The fact that the engineering was flawed is not really a reflection of poor physicists. That's like saying that a bank manager isn't fit to advise on a loan because the plumbers bodged the toilets up in his branch.

As to the questions of "why make cern in the first place"...calling it scientific arrogance etc is rather unfair. The LHC will certainly cause huge advances in partical physics. One of the biggies is that it will either discover the Higgs boson or prove that it doesn't exist...that's quite a big deal and it isn't a purely intellectual one either. Partical physics has many and varied applications in every day technology.

We cannot halt the human race's technological advancement every time someone comes up with a potential doomsday senario.

It is worth noting that, in science, it is never possible to be 100% sure of anything. *Nothing* can be 100% disproved. It is all based on probabilities. That is why there is a probability of LHC destroying the world. All we can do is put probability guides on everything. For example, there is nothing physically stopping you from flying into the air as you read this. It is entirely possible for all the atoms in your body to start moving in the same direction and cause this effect, it is just extremely unlikely. Much like LHC destroying the world.

Ok, the chances of the LHC destroying the world are a bit higher...we're pretty sure the strangelet theory is rubbish, that the black holes will evaporate almost instantly etc. but, as with everything, we arn't certain.

So, it is a small risk with the certainty of huge rewards if it doesn't kill us all. Its like crossing the road to go to a shop. Ok, you might die, but its unlikely and if you don't you'll get to eat Frosties in the morning.

Besides, if it does go tits up, we won't have much time for regrets as each doomsday senario seems to be pretty swift in its effect. So whats the problem? And lets face it...destroying the world by turning it into strange matter would be quite an impressive achievement.

Posted By Kiran, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/11/08 5:01 AM

Something about this really smells rotton.

Am I really supposed to believe that the nations of the earth are spending trillions of dollars to place over thirty 20 ton electromagnets and employ 1/3 of the worlds physicists (6300) in order to go on a Higgs Boson Hunt?

If this were antiquity, they would be building the tower of babal.

The question is: What is it really?

Kristina


Posted By Kristina, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/9/08 10:56 AM

Should I hold off paying my VISA bill?

Posted By Thom Kirouac, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/9/08 8:02 AM

I disagree with the experiment not only because of the probability of disastrous results but also for the immoral and unethical uses the research will be used for IF they are successful.

Do you think we are spiritually evolved enough for this technology and knowledge when the world is controlled by megalomaniac warlords to put this to good use for all humanity? Or do you think it will be used for world domination and control? What would Hitler have done if he had a time machine or could control the energy of black holes and/or stranglets?

No matter how much we try we will not be able to stop this. We will only be able to postpone the time till they push the button.

People are being killed, starving and living under impossible conditions and all mankind can do is think of new and better ways to destroy each other or possibly the universe.

Perhaps the earth and the universe would be better off if the parasitic infection called mankind would cease to exist.


Posted By M. Goodfield, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/9/08 7:46 AM

Having read the article and also many of the comments I am still left with one question.

Why is there a need to do this?

Posted By Martin LeMoine, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/9/08 5:53 AM

This is great to read. You guys are awesome!

Posted By Chris, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/8/08 11:57 PM

On the grand scale of the universe, these scientists are a bunch of retards with egos as big as space and time itself.

Posted By pepe, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/8/08 9:54 PM

The best part is, I am far enough away in 'Middle Earth' to get a few more minutes to live IF it goes bad. LOL


Posted By Warren East, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/21/08 4:19 AM

Thank you very much for this website and particularly for this "doomsday machine" page. It is now quite popular among the physicists who are working for the LHC all over the world... Say goodbye to your relatives and friends, sell all your stocks and valuables, go and enjoy your last few months on this petty planet.


Posted By A. Demir, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/20/08 10:00 AM

The money should be used for so many worthwhile things, like saving mankind for one.


Posted By Liz, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/15/08 1:33 PM

There is no such thing as a black hole - it is merely a mathmatical construct to fix the fact that when we examine the observable universe it does not fit our scientific models. Our theories of gravity and angular momentum where created hundreds of years ago through scientists studying our solar system, when we apply these theories to the universe (which consists of 99% ionised gas-plasma) these theories are so far out that modern science considers 97% of the known universe to consist of dark matter and energy. Our sun (like all stars) is a giant particle accelerator, the "solar wind" is simply a stream of particles accelerated by our sun. These particles are smashing into our atmosphere, planet and ourselves all the time. The real danger from the LHC (and I'm not convinced it's a very great one) is the huge magnetic fields created by the accelerator itself. Not enough research has been done on the consequences of these fields. If you consider the dangers that have been associated with charged particles form electricity pylons it is odd that there has not been more emphasis on this.

Posted By Damian Scott, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/15/08 8:00 AM

NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT NEXT YEARS BILLS OR LONG TERM INSURANCE OR THE NATIONAL DEBT,OR OTHER SUCH TRIVIAL PROBLEMS.

A GROUP OF FRENCH LOONIES, DISGUISED AS SCIENTISTS, HAVE FOUND A WAY TO END IT ALL, USING THE LARGEST PARTICLE COLLIDER EVER DREAMED OF OR BUILT. THE LARGE HADRON COLLIDER (LHC) MAY TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING WITH ONE GIANT BANG.

WHAT A WAY TO GO!!



Posted By JOHN JAY, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/12/08 4:01 PM

There is a significantly higher risk of Earth being destroyed through naturally produced black holes than by the LHC.

(MODERATOR: If there is just a slight risk of the total annihilation of the only known habitat of life in the universe, obviously there is nothing to worry about... right?)


Posted By Adam Morris, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/12/08 10:32 AM

Just read the official CERN site about LHC "safety"... Frightening, the physics-babble you can find there - ludicrous analogies to the TGV and mosquitos. Do they believe that themselves? And the most frightening bit is that about Hawkings "discovery" - no, he didn't discover anything; he's just another clueless nerd whose hypotheses for some irrational reason are taken very seriously.

Anyway, we DO have to do something, and we CAN DO something. Act now! Write to the president of your country, the minister of science, ... state your arguments in a clear way but express the urgency.

I know enough about physics, and THAT'S what makes me scared.

I hope enough scientists at CERN become doubtful at the last minute and go on strike or ... or ...



Posted By brickinthewall, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/10/08 3:24 PM

Okay, let's step back and think about this for a moment. Let's put aside all questions of whether the risk outweighs the benefit, whether these scientists are behaving morally, etc.

Instead, let's look at the raw concept of a "doomsday experiment", the notion that a particle accelerator like the LHC could (say) destroy our entire planet.

Think back to the end of World War 2, when we first developed and tested the atomic bomb. Imagine a scenario where dropping a nuke would destroy the entire planet due to a hypothetical chain reaction. Imagine that we realised this in time to stop making nuclear weapons, and imposed a worldwide ban on their development and use. We're safe right?

Well, no. Someday, somewhere, a little petty nation is going to realise that it can develop these weapons, in secret, and hold the entire world for ransom. Maybe they destroy us due to a lab accident, maybe they make good on their threat . . . or maybe an even smaller crackpot terrorist group gets ahold of the technology and detonates it in a holy war to get to their religion heaven and get their forty virgins or whatnot.

If a doomsday weapon exists, you can't control it, period. The mere existence of such a weapon has still doomed us all, and avoiding it now just means we live in fear of the day when it's unleashed anyway.

The idea of a terrorist group building their own LHC is absurd today, of course, but the idea of them making their own nuclear bomb was pretty unlikely fifty years ago. With technology getting exponentially better and smaller, it gets easier and easier to make these machines, and it only takes a single one to destroy us all.

That is, *if* it's possible for a particle accelerator to destroy us all in the first place. And that's why you'd better hope it's not. Because if it is, then even if you manage to stop the LHC outright, you still only delay the inevitable.

When the LHC comes online, we'll either discover a lot of new and exciting stuff about the world around us, or we'll discover that we were all doomed. So what's the big deal?


Posted By Wisq, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/10/08 3:23 PM

Keep it up!!! Thank you for making my LHC-working day worthwhile.

(MODERATOR: Instead of spending their work-days blithly cruising the Internet, these LHC employees should be watching their guages in an effort to curtail any further disasterious explosions like their recent "incident". There is an obvious lack of safety supervision at this critical facility.)


Posted By one, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/10/08 9:56 AM

The main purpose of the LHC is not "to produce antimatter or black holes". Its purpose is to detect elementary particles like the Higgs Boson in order to verify the standard model of physics and to clarify the phenomenon of mass.

Alex/Germany

(MODERATOR: Therefore the antimater and black holes are just inconvenient byproducts?)

Posted By Alex, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/9/08 10:33 AM

If there is even the slightest possibility of a risk of whatever kind, even if it is an 0.0000000001 per cent risk, there can be only one answer to the question, whether or not this risk should be taken: NO WAY!

A handful of scientists who have a stubborn trust in what they believe to know may want to take that risk still; however, 99.9999999999 per cent of the world population don’t.

STOP LHC NOW! AT ANY COST! BY ANY MEANS! ANY!!!


Posted By brickinthewall, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/8/08 3:59 PM

As for comment 32 posted by Clemmens:

Man can not fly, airplanes and helicopters do.

Train accidents kill people all the time.

A nuclear explosion does incinerate the atmosphere, try standing next to one when it goes off.

It's not the coming down from the trees, it's how we come down from trees that matters.

Posted By William, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/8/08 12:31 AM

Some of the comments forget that it is not just a French project! There are involved scientists from many countries including the UK. Well, I live 5 km from the collider, and I'll prepare some bottle of good French wine to take with me into the black hole!



Posted By Eugène, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/5/08 11:42 PM

This is madness! But I fear because so much money has been spent on it nothing and no one can stop them.

Posted By ian, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/3/08 6:08 PM

The end of all life is clearly trumped by the pursuit of knowledge.



Posted By Joe, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 4/1/08 7:13 PM

Wenn ich die Menschen höre, welche hier über die Bedenklichkeit von LHC fabulieren und mir dann überlege, dass diese Menschen als Wissenschaftler so ziemlich das Weitestentwickelste ist, was die Menschheit hervor gebracht hat, dann muss ich sagen, dass es mich um diese explizite Erde nicht wahnsinnig reut ! Lasst uns die Kanone hochfahren und dann zielen wir auf die Seppen in London!

el Taffereu (Zürich, Schweiz)

Posted By Taffareu, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/31/08 4:45 PM

Bah, I call 'Humbug' on that!

500 years ago, we thought that man cannot fly.

180 years ago, we thought that a trainride would be deadly.

60 years ago, we thought that a nuclear explosion would incinerate the athmosphere.

Probably some of you guys already argued against coming down from the trees...



Posted By Clemens, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/31/08 9:14 AM

[quote by Stephen] "My hope is that the facility blows up and takes a good chunk of France with it, 6k retarded scientist and a country full of arrogant bastards. Let the RAF take to the skies and bomb the whole thing before it's too late." [end quote]

These arrogant bastards, as you call them, don't claim to be the "world police".

Stick your RAF wherever you want and let scientists do what scientists have to do. You can do politics in your own country but not in France!

Schorsch/Germany




Posted By Hackl Schorsch, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/31/08 7:15 AM

Ahh... the peaceful use of scientific research! How the gods will laugh if this world is destroyed, not by weapons made by evil scientists, but the simple-minded search for the secrets of creation.

Posted By Skull, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/30/08 10:13 AM

Throw the switch, mad scientists! Matter and energy be damned, we have a Universe to conquer!


Posted By Brother B, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 10:46 PM

Damn this shit makes me RAAAAGGGEE!!!

My hope is that the facility blows up and takes a good chunk of France with it, 6k retarded scientist and a country full of arrogant bastards (WE NO NEED ENGLISH!) lost would make the world a better place.

Those exactly were my thoughts. Let the RAF take to the skies and bomb the whole thing before it's too late.

Why would we allow a couple of scientists on an ego trip to play Russian Roulette with the only place to live on that we have got? Somebody please tell me. What's the scientific gain of this "little" experiment? Those cowboy scientists know only too well that they can't be held accountable if it goes wrong.


Posted By Stephen, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 6:21 PM

Perhaps the observed black holes in our universe have not ever been created "naturally". The first one may have come about accidentally as an intelligent civilization was experimenting in regards to another unrelated area of physics. Subsequent ones could have originated the same way, or by trying to duplicate in miniature the now observed phenomena.

Maybe Planet Earth is the next-in-line "intelligent" species that brought about its doom because of curiosity. And we all know what that did for the cat.

Posted By rem, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 10:09 AM

It will never work, you can not crash theoretical particles in a variating low magnetic field and obtain a mini black hole nor fission. That is the equivalent of shooting a grain of sand around the earth and striking another designated specific granular near the speed of light. Somebody is skimming money of the top and getting rich on this boon doggle.


Posted By Jim Ethridge, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/29/08 6:51 AM

Perhaps the big bang theory will be self-fulfilling. Man is always looking for new ways of destruction. CERN may define our curious fatal flaw.

Posted By F. Meglin, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 11:18 PM

This is scientific mombo jumbo. Whether those in favor or against it are correct, won't matter.

The damn machine is never going to work, if there was any chance the thing might fire-up correctly the French would be full scale retreat. Half of them would be begging the US to help them and the other half would be hiding because they can't surrender to anyone.

Step-up people. If god wants Earth to be consummed into a black hole it will happen, if she doesn't it won't. If you don't believe in God, then no one is going to save us anyhow and its inevitable that we will wipe ourselves out one way or another. I say everyone takes a few days off before the big day and party like rock stars. Then hit the switch, we will all either have dreadful hangovers the next day or we'll be turned into a cosmic hockey puck.

Spending eternity as a black whole beats the hell out of trying to push a stone to the top of the hill without success forever.

Posted By Rubin Kincaid, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 4:08 PM

Ok I am not up to all the scientific terms nor knowledge but didn't we think the same thing when we were creating the atom bomb? That this would consume the world. Heck I live in the US and I am spooked about something in france goes haywire and if not 6 billion people and the planet are consumed it would be frightful to know such a creation could do this. I personally will be counting my blessings that they all got it right and there is some sort of safety in place if something goes wrong. I will never know why we create more ways to destroy life than save it.

Dan

Posted By Dan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 1:28 PM

Here at CERN you guys come up in lunch time chit chat. You have more entertainment value than I think you realize. You're video of earth collapsing into a black hole is a hoot.

Keep up the good work!

Posted By A Scientist. Well, Someday, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 3/28/08 9:26 AM

I wonder...why nothing at all in the news over the last months about this experiment? ....all is well, continue shopping...all is well...

[Moderartor: The French were set back a year or so by the explosion that tore apart an acclerator... So the world is safe for the time being...]


Posted By RWhyte, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/14/08 4:27 PM

Damn this shit makes me RAAAAGGGEE!!!

My hope is that the facility blows up and takes a good chunk of France with it, 6k retarded scientist and a country full of arrogant bastards(WE NO NEED ENGLISH!) lost would make the world a better place


Posted By KantarellANON, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/9/08 6:26 PM

What benefit's can be brought by creating blackholes on earth, I'm sure you could generate a black hole but how do you control it? You can't play God, and i believe this is scientists trying to see if god truly exists... i hope he does cause if this blows up we are all goners, the human race should have a say not just some scientists who say "yes and we'll understand how physics works properly" well if you don't know what your doing...don't fool around with something so dangerous!

Posted By Matthew Mace, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/7/08 3:07 PM

On my web site Revelation13.net I mention that Nostradamus the French prophet 500 years ago predicted that a particle accelerator would be built near Geneva and seems to predict disaster could result from it.
Nostradamus 9-44:
"All should leave Geneva,
Saturn turns from gold to iron,
The contrary positive ray (RAYPOZ) will exterminate everything,
there will be signs in the sky before this."

I am saying that his anagram RAYPOZ means positive ray, or proton beam. Nostradamus frequently used anagrams.
Perhaps a black hole will be captured by Saturn and eat Saturn?

Posted By T Chase Revelation13.net, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/3/08 6:07 AM

I am currently researching for a documentary on the LHC and am looking for subjects to interview on this matter. I would in particular be interested in passionate followers based in the UK and scientists/enthusiasts raising concerns over the security issues at CERN. Please contact me on kseidelin@hotmail.com if you have something to say on this matter.

Best Katrine

Posted By Katrine, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 11/7/07 10:16 AM

Let me see if I understand this right. The Black hole is supposed to last 1e-27s and would take a minimum of 1e-10s to reach the vessel walls That implies a vessel of about 30cm in radius (about 2 feet in diameter).

How certain of you of Hawking's theory and what is your confidence on that first number?? What if a steering magnet fails and the beam collision occurs a few centemeters off axis? What if the mass is a little higher than expected and the hole doesn't evaporate for 1e-11s? How good is your vacuum? Maybe it picks up just enough mass to fall out of the chamber before "evaporating"? Well I really hope that the CERN guys are right and I am wrong, because the whole thing looks pretty scary to me, and I am a Physicist. Way too many "maybe"s for my comfort level. If I were Alfred E. Neuman I'd say "Yes, me worry!!"

If it were up to me I'd tell them if you want to play with Black Holes then go play outside (of the solar system!!!) They're toying with over six billion human lives, plus a lot more nonhuman ones Unfortunately I don't have the clout to put a stop to this insanity.

Posted By Teresa E Tutt, PhD, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/12/07 5:06 PM

Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines...

Posted By General Buck Turgidson, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/12/07 4:25 PM

Fear not! The events at Garabandal preclude any realization of the worldwide disaster potentiated by the LHC. However, this does not absolve the scientific community fro its avaricious efforts to indulge in its endlessly insane projects because they are bored with where they exist in the order of the universe. They dare to speak of "god particles" and dare not to speak of the Creator of the particles -- God. Hence, the gamut of the scientific community bespeaks in blasphemous paradigms -- babbling brooks of benumbed mental aphorisms poised to look like grandiose intellectualisms devised to escape investigation by the common man so as to perennially engage in esoteric scientific endeavors under the cover of "research" in order to keep the bucks rolling in and their cleverly arranged psychotic fantasies supported by endless calculations on infernally complicated computers to arrive at conclusions that escape them at velocities they themselves hypothesize like a dog chasing its short tail with a snapping jaw until they churn themselves into the fabled tornado of mental activity that turns them into butter, but in this case -- a black hole. Indeed, these scentists are already black holes seeking to turn others into black holes. After all, like misery, black holes like company. They will not succeed, for failure is the fiber and fabric of their every mental course. All evils stem from the human will.

Posted By Daniel, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/10/07 10:31 PM

Nice response by Dave Richards. There's "probably" nothing to worry about. I guess we'll find out when they throw the switch, eh?

Just more evidence that many scientists are not rational people, but irrational and amoral people driven by emotion to function in a rational mode to do their jobs without serious regard for the consequences to us all by what they do.

We're "probably" worrying for nothing, that is true, and when the whole Earth is at risk, why bother even taking more time to consider the danger? After all, the only thing more important than preserving the Earth is preserving the expectations of all the agents who have invested their money in the project. I mean, you can't build something like that and then NOT throw the switch, even IF the whole world was in danger by it.

So damn the black holes and full speed ahead, whiz kids! Woo hoo!

Posted By David Duncan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 8/9/07 2:55 PM

Probably nothing to worry about here. If cosmic rays can produce mini black holes, we should expect to see many more supernova in the universe than we do, since mini black holes would be created on the periphery of massive stars regularly and eventually collapse the star's core. But we don't even see enough supernovae to support accepted theories about how they form (core buildup of Iron from fusion). That lack of understanding is underscored by the ~85% shortfall of neutrinos we expect to see from the Sun. Could be related to the question about why Jupiter is still so darned warm after 5 billion years (heat without proton-proton neutrino-generating nuclear fusion?). And if the folks who are backing SED (stochastic electrodynamics) are on the right track, then black holes as a gravitational sigularity probably don't even exist.. instead they might be a much denser form of matter beyond neutron stars.. perhaps a dark quark soup (no atoms or electrons/shells to give off light) that constantly tries to crush itself beyond quarks, but cannot owing to the idea that gravity has a subtle dependence on charge, including the partial charges on quarks.

Posted By Dave Richards, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 7/19/07 8:30 PM

I agree with Kim on this. They are playing with fire. If a black hole can suck in anything, then the theory of radiation causing instability is incorrect. Wouldn't a black whole simply suck it in as well? They say if we were to have a nuclear melt down, the radius for those affected would depend on the way the wind was blowing. Radiation soesnt cause the wind to deviate, why would a suction motion deviate the stability? Makes no sense to me.

All I do know for certain is that I am so scared, but there is nothing i can do about. They will do what they want because they can!


Posted By E. B Richens, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/13/07 9:13 AM

This is something that should be done on the moon. We have a bunch of "experts" that have absolutely no idea what the end result will be----its all theorized---they are going to destroy this planet!


Posted By kim, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/13/07 7:11 AM

On the lack of media coverage in the U.S.: It would not matter, with one exception: Oprah Winfrey could kill this project.

On the mathematical risk-assessment approach: The magnitude of a risk is a multiplicative function of: (a) the gravity of the harm, were it to ensue, and (b) the likelihood of occurrence. Now, defenders of the collider estimate (b) at 1 in 50 million, as if that made their case. However, because (a) is infinity, the product of (a) and (b) is still infinity.

Have I missed something here? There is no countervailing practical or life-enhancing benefit to be achieved, as would be the case with other technologies carrying existential risks but bringing lifesaving benefit.


Posted By Gideon Johnston, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/11/07 11:31 PM

If CERN is recreating conditions which haven't existed since a ' trillionth of a second after the Big Bang '... then how can these same conditions exist ' daily ' over our heads during cosmic ray collisions ?

This is a contradiction...

Cosmic ray collisions with particles in the upper atmosphere are relatively safe free-particle cllisions ... The collisions at CERN will be under magnetic confinement and higher collision densities than those present during free-particle cosmic ray interaction with the upper atmosphere.

Although superficially similar as high-energy ion collisions, it is not accurate to say that cosmic ray collisions re-create conditions during the Big Bang...

To compare cosmic ray collisions in the upper atmosphere with future particle collisions at CERN is also not entirely accurate.

---------------------------

About being swallowed by a black hole:

A black hole actually creates a great deal of thermal energy from tidal forces, friction, etc. present within the accretion of matter within its intense gravitational field. (This is not Hawking Radiation.)

A stable meso-cosmic scale black hole at the Earth's core would eventually raise the core temperature by several thousand degrees. This would produce large quantities of so-called ' rock vapor ' and a heat pulse which would find its way to the Earth's surface.

Eventually, you would be swallowed by the black hole... but not until you had been vaporized, atomized, smashed by pressure shocks, etc., etc. produced by the thermal release of energy from this accretion process.

Good Luck.


Posted By D. Gray, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/6/07 12:22 PM

Cosmic ray collisions in our atmosphere can be much more energetic than those that will be created by the LHC at CERN, so your argument that these microscopic black holes have not yet been observed in our atmosphere is flawed. If we haven't seen them in our atmosphere, then we won't be able to see them at CERN.

P.S. I agree with Nathan, we gotta go sometime, a black hole is a damn cool way to go if you ask me. It definitely beats global warming, or our good ole' friend Dubya starting WW3 or something.

Posted By Dylan Pittman, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 6/4/07 12:58 PM

It is my understanding that the startup date for this collider (LHC) has been delayed due to an explosion in one of the super-cooled magnets which compose the LHC --- requiring a re-design for this component.

The new startup date is in early 2008 according to reports... ("Particle Collider Startup Likely Delayed Until 2008" : AP)


Posted By Bonnie, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/30/07 10:44 AM

I try to keep up with science and technology news, but this problem at LHC has flown entirely under my radar.

I just recently learned of this from BBC America. No US media outlet has carried this story

Has this story broken through to the U.S. media yet at any level?

Posted By D. Gray, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/5/07 5:16 PM

Some Historical Context on Hawking's Theories:

The astrophysical universe of the mid-70's is not the universe we know today...

* Black hole existance as real objects was purely speculative at this time.

* Energy production in quasars and Seyfert galaxies was poorly understood.

* Cosmological background radiation was not mapped nor totally explained.

* Black holes were thought to be extremely rare objects --- as if black holes were disappearing by some unknown mechanism over cosmic timescales.

The 'new' theory of black hole evaporation / radiation at this time (Hawking Radiation) was eagerly sought as an explanation for each of these observations... It seemed to solve many problems.

OF COURSE, THIS WAS TOTAL NONSENSE...

The astrophysical universe of 2007 looks very different...

*Black holes are common --- an estimated 10,000 extra-solar mass black holes exist in the Milky Way galaxy alone.

*Supermassive black holes exist in the heart of most, if not all galaxies.

*Supermassive black holes drive the enormous energy production in quasars -- not the evaporation of primordial black holes left over from the Big Bang as had been suggested.

Within the context of the modern universe, Hawking radiation theory is becoming a horriblem unnecessary anachronism.

It is an explanation in search of a problem which no longer exists...

That Hawking's theories should be used to rationalize micro black hole creation at CERN is completely out of context. It is a non-sequitur ...

It is bad science; It is a SCANDAL of the highest order.


Posted By D. Gray, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/5/07 5:07 PM

Something has to take us out. If it's not peak oil, or a nuclear war... than what? I have lost all hope for the human race surviving. We are just not that bright. Personally, a black hole sounds like a good way to go, if you have to go. It beats global warming for sure.


Posted By nathan, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/3/07 11:01 PM

Wouldn't be the first time france F'ed up the world.

Posted By SD_Scott, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 5/3/07 7:50 PM

Having given these assertions some thought, I am not losing any sleep, except over graduate physics courses...

If the earth collapsed into a black hole, it would have Schwartzchild Radius of about 9.5 millimeters. So, the black hole shown in your video is much too big!

Likewise, conclusions presented here are much bigger than facts. I do think you are entering dark territory, where some facts are more public than others, and scientists are obliged to keep it that way. In particular, interactions on the scale of the weak force are also of military interest.

I can see how this would create suspicions in public quarters, that CERN scientists are in lock-step with project managers, and capitalist greed is pervasive.

My 2 cents? We are good to go at any energy level, right down to the Planck scale....



Posted By Richard Reddy, www.MisunderstoodUniverse.com | 2/11/07 4:39 PM